Why does RM have this model?

[westminstrel]

22 minutes ago, Cornishfarmer said:

What I don’t get is, the royal mint are selling a coin for a fraction of the resale value, I know it’s hype but if they doubled the mintage they would double the turnover.    They are costing the company money by limiting mintage’s     This would take the flippers out and the genuine collectors would carry on collecting.

Not sure this is completely true - there is a sweet spot for mintages which can be hard to gauge because it depends on how the public receives a coin. Also, let’s be honest, most “collectors” aren’t collecting these coins simply because they love the design. They’re doing so also because they hope the value will not depreciate over time.

Let’s say we knew for certain that the plain edge 2 Oz would drop in value and cost £2,000 after 1 year (like a car’s value depreciates over time), how many would really hanker for it? Not many.

Part of the desirability of a coin to collectors is also its rarity. If they were to simply double mintages, that would drive desirability down. Of course more people would then be able to afford and own them, but would as many people want to in that scenario?

The RM sets prices for their products based on whatever formulae they use. Usually proof coins are around 100% over spot. If the aftermarket drives that to 200% over spot, what’s the RM to do or care. They’ve sold their products with a certain profit target in mind. It’s done and dusted for them. And vice versa if the aftermarket drives prices down, then lucky for the RM - they still made whatever profit they aimed to.

It’s simple market forces at play here.

The RM can’t do much about it - except what they’ve done already - which is give the people who they deem “collectors” (those who purchased prior coins in a series) first dibs, and make it a lottery for the rest of the people. Whether those collected are true collectors or flippers is not the RM’s business; and I doubt they care.

[StackemHigh]

Why not send out tulip bulbs to everyone and if the correct colour flower is grown then you get the chance to buy the rm's latest coin!

[BarryWoods]

On 06/12/2021 at 16:58, Touvex said:

Today's craziness got me thinking...

I managed to get in the queue at around 200th spot, which I thought was very lucky, but when I got in - all that's left was the 2oz. Which is crazy. I feel sorry for those in 2000th or even 5000th.

I'm assuming this happened because most of the coins have been allocated to dealers - who will instantly list these coins for sell at up to 4x the price of RRP. We’ve seen some.

My question is what benefit does RM have to gain from this?

Why would they prioritise flippers over DTC (direct to consumer)?

Why annoying hundreds if not thousands of collectors to satisfy a few dealers?

Because these dealers buy so much “bullion” coins from them? And this kind of stuff is a bonus from RM to thier B2B customers?

Someone else said on groups - if Rolex found their “official” dealers flipped like this, they would ban them immediately - Rolex watches are always sold at RRP at official dealers, they are just sold to people who have a history of purchase, but not at bulk either like RM, i.e. one per customers, it is then "flippered" on the secondary/unregulated markets.

RM literally sell at bulk, to flippers.

I'm also a gold Mint Marque member, and even my Account Manager said it had been all allocated... very sad situation as I really wanted a 2oz gold for my collection... But no way I’m paying the insane prices it’s been flipped for already.

Win some lose some!

Feel free to drop your thoughts here all, no hate  it's the game we love to hate.

I was 176th in the queue. no gold 2sz crowns... frankly a bit disgusted.. (I took my chances like everyone else)

I agree. As with other products of this nature. those with special access- doing quick flips for a profit, would no longer have special access.

The Royal Mint should think hard about this. as ultimately the dealers and the Mint, depend on the actual collectors!!

[westminstrel]

And how would the RM keep track GLOBALLY of who are flippers? I’m not being argumentative here - it is a genuine question.

Also, I think rather they should not pre allocate any coins to dealers - though I assume that would break some part of their business model which I have no clue about. 

[GoldDiggerDave]

@BarryWoods If you are a true collector then buy the Alderney Island Gothic set, its a utter gem a true collectors piece for true collectors.  I bought one The quality is top draw £460 for 2 coins that come already graded PR70DCM,  it's a steal.  

And IMO they have beat the RM to the punch with the special portrait of Queen Elizabeth II...............by the one only JC Jody Clark!

Edited December 10, 2021 by GoldDiggerDave

[Stu]

16 hours ago, westminstrel said:

And how would the RM keep track GLOBALLY of who are flippers? I’m not being argumentative here - it is a genuine question.

Also, I think rather they should not pre allocate any coins to dealers - though I assume that would break some part of their business model which I have no clue about. 

They could make a start by putting the coa on the edge of coin or a unique way of identifying each coin. Hopefully auction houses would engage with recording and the process. Any numbers being sold within x amount of years, original buyer loses privileges? Would only leave feebay who as per, wouldn’t give a toss. 

[westminstrel]

3 minutes ago, Stu said:

They could make a start by putting the coa on the edge of coin or a unique way of identifying each coin. Hopefully auction houses would engage with recording and the process. Any numbers being sold within x amount of years, original buyer loses privileges? Would only leave feebay who as per, wouldn’t give a toss. 

But how would the RM accurately keep track of everyone who has sold vs kept their coins? What if you sell off the record, like on this forum? In fact many “real collectors” like us do sell to fellow collectors on forums like this.

Separately would people even want their purchases and sales to be tracked this way?

I honestly still don’t get how this could be feasible.

[Stu]

10 minutes ago, westminstrel said:

But how would the RM accurately keep track of everyone who has sold vs kept their coins? What if you sell off the record, like on this forum? In fact many “real collectors” like us do sell to fellow collectors on forums like this.

Separately would people even want their purchases and sales to be tracked this way?

I honestly still don’t get how this could be feasible.

You are probably right. However, if true collectors would not be prepared to engage with the process , the ones who would benefit most, then there would be no chance.

Quite telling what you replied, is it that a good % of collectors are prepared to flip themselves and therefore part of the problem? I know some will sell to mates at cost but think this is the exception?

 

Edited December 11, 2021 by Stu

[westminstrel]

1 minute ago, Stu said:

You are probably right. However, if true collectors would not be prepared to engage with the process , the ones who would’ve benefit most, then there would be no chance.

That’s true. A collector who wants to get first dibs on a series could have the chance to “opt in” to the “collector program”, tracking etc. included.

If it were me, I would be fine opting in, if I really and truly wanted to have a continuing series without the uncertainty and hassle of vying with everyone else. 

[westminstrel]

4 minutes ago, Stu said:

Quite telling what you replied, is it that a good % of collectors are prepared to flip themselves and therefore part of the problem? I know some will sell to mates at cost but think this is the exception?

Yeah in fact many collectors even on this forum admit to buying “one for my collection” and “one to flip so I can offset the cost of the one I will keep”.

I personally think collectors are also part of the problem.

[Stu]

26 minutes ago, westminstrel said:

Yeah in fact many collectors even on this forum admit to buying “one for my collection” and “one to flip so I can offset the cost of the one I will keep”.

I personally think collectors are also part of the problem.

I’m not judging anyone although I do think some folks would like to have their cake and eat it. 

[GoldDiggerDave]

There is some interesting points in this post, agree or disagree is good to see us having sensible conversation. The idea of the COA imprinted on the side of the coin is interesting.  I bought multiple sets of 2022 proof sovereigns does that make me a bad person? I had the means, the foresight and  contacts to buy from multiple sources and yes i sold them to make a profit.  A profit to subsidises holding my 2022 5 coin set and the money/profits go back into by coin buying fund which can only help the industry as a whole.

It has taken me years to build relationships with suppliers and dealers so I can pick up the phone and ask them, i'm not always successful but can increase my odds of getting what I want.  

I understand the total frustration I missed out on the gold 3G's I lost my total sh*t on that one, but I did not let it deter me, if you work hard and sometimes you work hard and still don't get the reward, it makes it all the better on the day when you land something you wanted.  

Am I a bad person for selling 2022 sovereigns?  what makes one coin okay but another not okay, the value the mintage  and ask yourself if you had got want you wanted would you honesty not sell it or plan to sell it in the next few years?  Or you buy it in all good faith and you lose your job would you not sell it for the most you could?  Would you be happy in that scenario for the RM police to come knocking on your door to stop you selling it?

Away it's an interesting post,  

 

 

 

 

[westminstrel]

8 minutes ago, Stu said:

I’m not judging anyone although I do think some folks would like to have their cake and eat it. 

Yeah I’m not judging anyone either - I guess I’m just trying to arrive back at my original conclusion that the Royal Mint has no real way of controlling anything because a “collector” is hard to distinguish from a “flipper”, especially when you throw “collector-flippers” into the mix. 😀

[westminstrel]

1 minute ago, GoldDiggerDave said:

There is some interesting points in this post, agree or disagree is good to see us having sensible conversation. The idea of the COA imprinted on the side of the coin is interesting.  I bought multiple sets of 2022 proof sovereigns does that make me a bad person? I had the means, the foresight and  contacts to buy from multiple sources and yes i sold them to make a profit.  A profit to subsidises holding my 2022 5 coin set and the money/profits go back into by coin buying fund which can only help the industry as a whole.

It has taken me years to build relationships with suppliers and dealers so I can pick up the phone and ask them, i'm not always successful but can increase my odds of getting what I want.  

I understand the total frustration I missed out on the gold 3G's I lost my total sh*t on that one, but I did not let it deter me, if you work hard and sometimes you work hard and still don't get the reward, it makes it all the better on the day when you land something you wanted.  

Am I a bad person for selling 2022 sovereigns?  what makes one coin okay but another not okay, the value the mintage  and ask yourself if you had got want you wanted would you honesty not sell it or plan to sell it in the next few years?  Or you buy it in all good faith and you lose your job would you not sell it for the most you could?  Would you be happy in that scenario for the RM police to come knocking on your door to stop you selling it?

Away it's an interesting post,  

 

 

 

 

Well articulated with great personal examples. There was no judgement or offence intended, by the way; just an open discussion going on. 🙂

I guess I at least am concluding that it is generally hard to distinguish between a collector and a flipper because we all fall somewhere on the collector-flipper spectrum at different points in time and in different scenarios.

[GoldDiggerDave]

@westminstrel I love having open debate with people of opposing sides and I'm from a generation where I can disagree with someone but still respect them, and their right to have their say without being "offended" or getting up set.  Some of my best conversations are with people who I don't like personally yet respect them enough to hear their point of view, something many people could do with learning.   

 

[TeaTime]

I have no problem with anyone flipping coins to finance their collections - but i do get a little irate with buyers who purchase with the sole aim of immediately selling on to make a profit. If flippers didn't create the artificial scarcity of a coin in the first place then collectors wouldn't have to pay such high prices on the secondary market. Most RM mintages are based on historic sales figures - they know that the demand for proof coins is usually miniscule (as a percentage of the population) and manufacture accordingly.. The shear number of these gothic crown tribute coins that are currently for sale on the secondary market is indicative of two things 1) A huge percentage have been bought with the sole intention of making money off of genuine collectors & 2) There is a good likelihood that demand (and prices) will tumble once actual collectors have obtained one. All that will be left will be speculators selling to each other and that is unsustainable in the long term. 

These coins are not one-offs nor are the numbers minted going to decrease over time - there will be 4000 odd of the 2oz silver proof coins always and a limited market to sell to. I am confident that should i ever wish to own one of them (i don't presently) then i will be able to find one a few years down the line at a reasonable price.

P.S. i bought a handful of the cupro-nickel 'Blue Peter' 50ps back in the day at the princely sum of £2.50 each only to subsequently sell them on Ebay at £100 each. That makes me somewhat of a hypocrite but in my defence, i cannot be accountable for peoples gullibility and they were minted to order (no limit) - and very few bothered ordering !  

[blackadder]

4 hours ago, GoldDiggerDave said:

It has taken me years to build relationships with suppliers and dealers so I can pick up the phone and ask them, i'm not always successful but can increase my odds of getting what I want.

I don't think people care who gets what,it's more the deceitful/misleading type of terrible.When they send out emails or act like everyone is welcome to buy a coin.

Knowing full well they have sold most to dealers/shops or whoever before the queue even gets started.

people at 1000 odd in the queue from the start,and the 2oz silver already sold out  

 

 

[GoldDiggerDave]

2 minutes ago, blackadder said:

I don't think people care who gets what,it's more the deceitful/misleading type of terrible.When they send out emails or act like everyone is welcome to buy a coin.

Knowing full well they have sold most to dealers/shops or whoever before the queue even gets started.

people at 1000 odd in the queue from the start,and the 2oz silver already sold out  

 

 

You may be under false pretences, to my knowledge nothing was sold before 9:00am on the day.  I phoned everyone I knew and everyone even some very big dealers had no guarantees, that's what made this launch so manic. Do you know of anyone who bought before 9:00am on the day as you say? 

[blackadder]

20 minutes ago, GoldDiggerDave said:

You may be under false pretences, to my knowledge nothing was sold before 9:00am on the day.  I phoned everyone I knew and everyone even some very big dealers had no guarantees, that's what made this launch so manic. Do you know of anyone who bought before 9:00am on the day as you say? 

There was people that morning on the gothic thread,in the que from the start anywhere from 1000 to 1600 etc etc that never even got a 2oz silver.

As was being reported it had already sold out..I was in around 1900 and it was being reported as sold out so gave up.

anyway i don't care anymore lol.

[Darr3nG]

5 hours ago, westminstrel said:

a “collector” is hard to distinguish from a “flipper”, especially when you throw “collector-flippers” into the mix

So we have a "collector" (~good) and a "flipper" (~bad), and a "collector-flipper" (~neutral)  - my head hurts! I just like shiny things!  

I see myself more of an "investor" - I am buying at today's prices, hoping to sell for a decent return, years from now.

But when does a "flipper" become an "investor"? How long should one wait, not to branded a "flipper"? 

[Bixley]

3 minutes ago, blackadder said:

There was people that morning on the gothic thread,in the que from the start anywhere from 1000 to 1600 etc etc that never even got a 2oz silver.

As was being reported it had already sold out..I was in around 1900 and it was being reported as sold out so gave up.

anyway i don't care anymore lol.

You got a low number!  I got 3463 and didn't get into the Royal Mail's site until after 11 o'clock. 

[blackadder]

11 minutes ago, Bixley said:

You got a low number!  I got 3463 and didn't get into the Royal Mail's site until after 11 o'clock. 

Yeah i got around 2k to 2.2k i think,but people on here said the silver was gone so gave up.But if there's around 3.5k coins how many were already sold of before hand etc.

So at 3463 and you didn't get on until 11 that's working as intended right lol

[GoldDiggerDave]

15 minutes ago, Darr3nG said:

So we have a "collector" (~good) and a "flipper" (~bad), and a "collector-flipper" (~neutral)  - my head hurts! I just like shiny things!  

I see myself more of an "investor" - I am buying at today's prices, hoping to sell for a decent return, years from now.

But when does a "flipper" become an "investor"? How long should one wait, not to branded a "flipper"? 

It's a really interesting question, theres a few on here would only be happy if you sold a coin with their prior approval, so it would seam very much like that.  

Nothing wrong with buying smart, I bought the wife a new Suzuki Jimny, I was on the waiting list for over a year but knew 1 she would be happy and 2 the car would appreciate in value.  I've had offers of 45% more than I paid for it would that make me a flipper if I sold it?  

I could have done this with a mountain bike recently a Scott Spark 2022,(some models now fetching a premium)   If you have an eye for value, have the knowledge and the cash to back it up and afford to hold or lose the investment then why not?   I'm a collector first and a seller second.  

 

[BarryWoods]

my concern is when those with special access to the Royal Mint - get to flip for instant profit - if as it were say Ferrari or Rolex, etc those with a special relationship (ie spent a lot) that gets special access - if they then flip 'instantly' for an instant profit - they would not get it again.. (and pragmatically - selling at a later date, would not be a problem - it is just the optics look bad for  the company selling the products)

 

Anybody that had access - like everyone else - that took the chance - took the risk - and then decided to quickly sell into the secondary market - that is fine - they took a risk, had equal access - vs no risk..

Those in a public equally might make a massive profit - or risk finding hard to sell something they didn't really want, hard to sell, market saturated with flippers - just trying to make a profit. rather than careing about the product

[richatthecroft]

4 hours ago, GoldDiggerDave said:

You may be under false pretences, to my knowledge nothing was sold before 9:00am on the day.  I phoned everyone I knew and everyone even some very big dealers had no guarantees, that's what made this launch so manic. Do you know of anyone who bought before 9:00am on the day as you say? 

 

I’m pretty certain that some people got early access to the RM site early- as early as 0830hrs.

I was pig sick this was the case as I saw this post in real time- I was number 1280 in the queue- and knew that if the cupboard was being raided at 0830hrs then I wouldn’t stand a chance- if one person got in, then likely many hundreds did, that would put paid to all denominations other than 2oz Silver.

Fortunately for me, I got on the phone at 9am and was on hold for 105 minutes but at 1045 I got served- and got a 2oz Silver- when my access was available online- at 1110- there was bugger- all left.