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Why does RM have this model?


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Today's craziness got me thinking...

I managed to get in the queue at around 200th spot, which I thought was very lucky, but when I got in - all that's left was the 2oz. Which is crazy. I feel sorry for those in 2000th or even 5000th.

I'm assuming this happened because most of the coins have been allocated to dealers - who will instantly list these coins for sell at up to 4x the price of RRP. We’ve seen some.

My question is what benefit does RM have to gain from this?

Why would they prioritise flippers over DTC (direct to consumer)?

Why annoying hundreds if not thousands of collectors to satisfy a few dealers?

Because these dealers buy so much ‚Äúbullion‚ÄĚ coins from them? And this kind of stuff is a bonus from RM to thier B2B customers?

Someone else said on groups - if Rolex found their ‚Äúofficial‚ÄĚ dealers flipped like this, they would ban them immediately - Rolex watches are always sold at RRP at official dealers, they are just sold to people who have a history of purchase, but not at bulk either like RM, i.e. one per customers, it is then "flippered" on the secondary/unregulated markets.

RM literally sell at bulk, to flippers.

I'm also a gold Mint Marque member, and even my Account Manager said it had been all allocated... very sad situation as I really wanted a 2oz gold for my collection... But no way I’m paying the insane prices it’s been flipped for already.

Win some lose some!

Feel free to drop your thoughts here all, no hate :) it's the game we love to hate.

Edited by Touvex
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Yes agree. I am waiting for mine to come in the post and then I want to submit a FOI request as I would be interested to see how many of the 350 gold were allocated to favourite customers and/or dealers like BCC to sell at a higher price. 

I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't actually any for sale on the website. 

I got in around 200 and it was only the 2oz silver left. 

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3 minutes ago, TringSilver said:

Yes agree. I am waiting for mine to come in the post and then I want to submit a FOI request as I would be interested to see how many of the 350 gold were allocated to favourite customers and/or dealers like BCC to sell at a higher price. 

I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't actually any for sale on the website. 

I got in around 200 and it was only the 2oz silver left. 

Interesting, does FOI actually cover this? Can we request to see (aside from individuals) the businesses that they went to?

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It seems a reasonable request to me, I don't even want any details, it could be as simple as;

100 went to mint marque

Dealer 1 - 20

Dealer 2 - 15

Etc etc

This seems a reasonable request to me as we could all be scrambling to get 10 coins everytime there is a release which is actually wasting all of our time! 

The trouble is I can't even get Mint Marque as I can't buy any of the coins I actually want ūü§£

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It does seem a strange way to do business to me. 

I don't know why if they have got, say, 350 coins, that they don't just auction them over the course of the week to the people who put in the highest 350 bids.  It would avoid a mad rush.  As long as the auction is transparent and everyone could see what the 350th lowest bid is they would know what they would need to pay to get one.  Flippers would be deterred, because anyone who wanted one could have bought at the higher auction price.  The coins would find their own true price level.

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55 minutes ago, TringSilver said:

I got in around 200 and it was only the 2oz silver left. 

if that's the case its wasting peoples time and lying.

 

22 minutes ago, Martlet said:

I dont understand is why they bothered with the queue. It seemed false to me, very slow to change and apparently people far lower than I was failed to get on and order, while others seemed to get in.  

 

Yes most of it was gone before most got a look in.

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It is something of a mystery.  

I suspect they could increase the mintages by half and still sell out within no time at all....

But when you are a government owned body with no shareholders I guess you do what you want to an extent.

Personally I am not a fan of todays coin - the portrait of Victoria made the original for me.  Victorian Sovereigns all the way!

Best

Dicker

Not my circus, not my monkeys

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The Mint will always have partners they deal with. From a business perspective there are numerous advantages to this but I agree to an extent - a situation like with the BCC does leave a bad taste in the mouth. It is what it is though and given how many of these coins will have been bought up by flippers who are individual customers I'm not sure it really matters all that much.

Some things could definitely be improved though. They really should list how much of each coin they have available to buy so people queuing aren't wasting more time than they need to be. With the 9am Monday launches most of us have other things we need to be doing at that time so if there is no chance of getting a desired coin it would be nice to know that sooner rather than later.

When it comes to a series like this or any other the RM should really make more of an effort to help previous buyers of the coins get a chance to buy the next in the series. I see they did this with a plain edged variant of the 2oz gold but most people didn't start with the 2oz gold Una so this is mostly irrelavent. There are plenty who took a chance plonking down £180 for a mere 2oz of silver 2 years ago. It turned out well but there was no guarantee of that and in return for liking and buying into a new series the reward from the mint is this tedious process of desperately trying to get the next coin. Its a complete and utter disincentive to buy into a series. Why start when there is such a slim chance of being able to carry on?

Edited by AppleZippoandMetronome
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When I look at some of the Sovereigns for sale on Drake Sterling and similar websites (example below), I am glad to collect coins from a bygone age!

(I have no association with Drake Sterling they just have some great coins)

https://www.drakesterling.com/coins-for-sale/sovereigns/shield-reverse/1871-shield-reverse-sovereign-37553891

Not my circus, not my monkeys

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1 hour ago, dicker said:

When I look at some of the Sovereigns for sale on Drake Sterling and similar websites (example below), I am glad to collect coins from a bygone age!

(I have no association with Drake Sterling they just have some great coins)

https://www.drakesterling.com/coins-for-sale/sovereigns/shield-reverse/1871-shield-reverse-sovereign-37553891

Anyone know how much this sold for? it's my dream coin!

https://www.drakesterling.com/coins-for-sale/sovereigns/george-iii/1817-sovereign-pcgs-ms65-21694839

 

 

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Some Australian dealers have some really cracking Sovereigns for sale.  

Drake Sterling

Sterling and Currency (in Fremantle)

Top End Coins (although I have not visited their site lots)

And arguable for pretty good money compared to the U.K. at times.

Best

Dicker

 

Not my circus, not my monkeys

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Unfortunately the Royal Mint model has changed considerably over recent years. Their interest in private collectors has dwindled with time and their priority is with big spenders, bulk buyers and associates and i have seen this reflected very clearly by my account managers over a period of time.

You can fully understand this business model because at the end of the day it is all about money, just a shame that collectors have been sidelined as a result of it.

 

 

Edited by Fivepoundfred
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I do think this situation could be made less frustrating by some simple improved communication pre-sale, not convinced RM would agree but:

1. Some clarity over what they are selling and stock availability for the actual sale 

2. Updates to the queue when certain items have sold out - seen this on other QueueIT sales 

3. Some clarity around how their QueueIT is set up - if its completely random then fair enough but would stop people wasting their time joining the website and queue as early as they can.

I believe points 2 and 3 could be implemented and be massive quick wins for the mint. Point 1, I think telling people what they are selling pre-release isn’t controversial and should be made far clearer before the sale goes live. Releasing how much stock they have compared to mintage may be a step too far especially if the most collectible coins have already been allocated.

Also we must remember for most of their sales they do not see this level of customers hitting the site so would they change their process to accommodate this, time will tell but I am not expecting anything to change

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2 hours ago, Simmoleon said:

I do think this situation could be made less frustrating by some simple improved communication pre-sale, not convinced RM would agree but:

1. Some clarity over what they are selling and stock availability for the actual sale 

2. Updates to the queue when certain items have sold out - seen this on other QueueIT sales 

3. Some clarity around how their QueueIT is set up - if its completely random then fair enough but would stop people wasting their time joining the website and queue as early as they can.

I believe points 2 and 3 could be implemented and be massive quick wins for the mint. Point 1, I think telling people what they are selling pre-release isn’t controversial and should be made far clearer before the sale goes live. Releasing how much stock they have compared to mintage may be a step too far especially if the most collectible coins have already been allocated.

Also we must remember for most of their sales they do not see this level of customers hitting the site so would they change their process to accommodate this, time will tell but I am not expecting anything to change

Regarding Queue it, this is a quote from their website, not sure if particular users can tweak or adjust the system of operation or if it just a standard ?

Prevent early visitors from overwhelming your site and neutralize any advantage to arriving early. Visitors arriving before the start of a scheduled sale or registration will see a countdown page. Once it starts, these visitors are randomized just like a raffle and put in the waiting room. Visitors who arrive later get a first-come, first-served place in line.

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21 minutes ago, Fivepoundfred said:

Regarding Queue it, this is a quote from their website, not sure if particular users can tweak or adjust the system of operation or if it just a standard ?

Prevent early visitors from overwhelming your site and neutralize any advantage to arriving early. Visitors arriving before the start of a scheduled sale or registration will see a countdown page. Once it starts, these visitors are randomized just like a raffle and put in the waiting room. Visitors who arrive later get a first-come, first-served place in line.

My experience of QueueIT is they form a waiting room and randomise on entry to the queue which for the RM is 9am - if RM released a communication to confirm this I suspect immediately it would address the frustrations of many a customer who are joining the website at 6-8am only to find out somebody who arrived at 8.55am is ahead of them in the queue. 

If they read this forum they would understand the hours of research we have put in trying to understand how the queue works (and ways to improve our chances).

I guess the point I am trying to make is many of the frustrations in the sale could be addressed by simple comms around the process.

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They really can do better.

I recently entered a Adidas shoe "Draw". Basic concept is you select the shoe's you want, chose the size, enter your payment details. Then wait to hear if you have been selected. Order is processed and shipped out. Not a queue in sight, and just a win or loose on the day. Now why cant the mint do this?

shoes.thumb.jpg.6d5a66af9d7f7792b0ecb53ee22f6d62.jpg

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I would suggest that the number of coins being produced is probably about right. If speculators were removed from the equation then the RM could probably stop with the lottery model and sell their usual tiny mintages in a normal way.

Historically most of the pattern and non-circulating coins produced by the Mint held no interest to 99.99% of the population - these items were often gifted to dignitaries or heads of state etc. I wonder what percentage of the buyers now have purchased in the hope of re-selling at profit...

It's a difficult decision for them and, in all probability, if they were to up the mintages and availability of a lot of their offerings they would be left with unsold stock. It's the difficulty in obtaining certain coins that keep the frenzy going.

 

 

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21 minutes ago, TeaTime said:

I would suggest that the number of coins being produced is probably about right. If speculators were removed from the equation then the RM could probably stop with the lottery model and sell their usual tiny mintages in a normal way.

Historically most of the pattern and non-circulating coins produced by the Mint held no interest to 99.99% of the population - these items were often gifted to dignitaries or heads of state etc. I wonder what percentage of the buyers now have purchased in the hope of re-selling at profit...

It's a difficult decision for them and, in all probability, if they were to up the mintages and availability of a lot of their offerings they would be left with unsold stock. It's the difficulty in obtaining certain coins that keep the frenzy going.

 

 

I think the high gold price attracts a lot of general interest and that in turn attracts the speculators.

The mint is just operating their production numbers in exactly the same way a lot of other companies do when they have a popular luxury type of product to sell, by using manufactured scarcity. I can think of Nike Air trainers and Hermes handbags as other examples of this. I can't say this is a nice thing to do for collectors but it's a well known business model.

The sad thing about the queueing system is they already have done alternatives on their website before, the latest one was a piedfort 50p Kew gardens giveaway, people don't need to spend 90mins in a queue to be told they've sold out, they can just do a ballot if they want that type of randomness.

 

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On 07/12/2021 at 08:13, Simmoleon said:

I do think this situation could be made less frustrating by some simple improved communication pre-sale, not convinced RM would agree but:

1. Some clarity over what they are selling and stock availability for the actual sale 

2. Updates to the queue when certain items have sold out - seen this on other QueueIT sales 

3. Some clarity around how their QueueIT is set up - if its completely random then fair enough but would stop people wasting their time joining the website and queue as early as they can.

I believe points 2 and 3 could be implemented and be massive quick wins for the mint. Point 1, I think telling people what they are selling pre-release isn’t controversial and should be made far clearer before the sale goes live. Releasing how much stock they have compared to mintage may be a step too far especially if the most collectible coins have already been allocated.

Also we must remember for most of their sales they do not see this level of customers hitting the site so would they change their process to accommodate this, time will tell but I am not expecting anything to change

I think point 2 here would absolutely minimise time wasted waiting in a queue only to find no items when you get access to the website. It might also reduce some clogging if people aren't interested in what's left to let them duck out of the queue so those further back but do want things (e.g. 2oz silver) can stick around.

Point 1 is something I wish they would consider - this could easily be included in the pre-release information email. Even better, it could be released a reasonable time in advance to help with budgeting and weighing up where I'd like to focus my collection!

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When you have a one-off offering, a lottery / ballot would work fine. Like the Kew Gardens 50p ballot.

When it is about a continuing series of a high value coins, I don‚Äôt see an issue with the Royal Mint offering first dibs to loyal customers who have purchased¬†previous coins in the series. Whether these people buy¬†for their own collections or to ‚Äúflip‚ÄĚ, it‚Äôs not the RM‚Äôs business. Even if¬†the RM were to do a lottery, the winners could be flippers. This model would be much more of a disincentive to true collectors who genuinely want them for their personal collections.

In the end everyone is buying coins because they expect the value to go up so they can sell at a profit at some future point, whether in 2 days, 2 years, or 20 years.

The model the RM had today actually seems quite fair to me - those who have purchased prior coins in a series get first dibs, while the rest of the folks go into a lottery (via the queue-it system) for the remaining coins. I don’t see what the problem is.

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I'm  a RM platinum level customer and still did not get a 2oz gold and that's not for the lack of asking, I'll just have to work harder next time.  Where you have 1000"s of times more demand for a product that what's available then you are going to get unhappy people.  So when you don't get what you want what are you going to do next time?  What can you do to put yourself in a better position?  We have all seen people  in life complaining about other people have it so much better yet they don't even do the simplest thing to help themselves (how many work colleagues do we all  know are like this).

I totally agree the website and queueing system is the most frustrating thing ever, have you thought about the total abuse the RM staff got on Monday from carpet baggers?  Not saying this is happening but if it was me and my staff I'd close rank and only offer these high end items to previous customers without the launch, even then they could have sold them 10x over.  

It's a real difficult one, they could produce un limited mintages of these coins and if they did there would be posts criticising them for it.  I'm not a blindly loyal RM customer and they have frustrated me beyond belief, and no doubt continue to frustrate me from time to time. Yet there are times of joy when you land something you really wanted.

You simply can't please 100% of people 100% of the time. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by GoldDiggerDave
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What I don’t get is, the royal mint are selling a coin for a fraction of the resale value, I know it’s hype but if they doubled the mintage they would double the turnover.    They are costing the company money by limiting mintage’s     This would take the flippers out and the genuine collectors would carry on collecting.   I admire @Frenchie and @Paul for holding on to the Una when most would sell and now it’s paying off for them as the royal mint have done a good job and making sure they can get the whole collection.    Just wish they did the same with the 2oz and 5oz silver.      

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