Please help with this gold five pound sovereign coin

[fotosh5]

Hello,

as i am not experienced with gold sovereigns can someone help with letting me know the value of this five pounds gold sovereign?

This coin has been offered to me but before i purchase it, i would like for more experienced members of our forum to advise me.

thank you in advance for your help.

 

 

 

 

[Stuntman]

First of all - lovely to see a picture of an 1893 quintuple sovereign.

The most important point about this coin in my opinion is to be as sure as you can that it's actually a genuine coin.  So I would be buying the seller, rather than the coin.  Are they are a private individual or a reputable coin or bullion dealer?  Are they selling it as guaranteed genuine, and would therefore give you a full refund if the coin was actually a fake (even if it was 22ct gold and full weight)?

In terms of the actual coin - well it looks genuine in my opinion, but it is in relatively low numismatic grade for one of these. I would put at VF at best (UK grading) so I certainly wouldn't be paying top collector-style money for it.

It is definitely a collector coin as opposed to a stacker coin, so if you wanted to buy 5 sovereigns' worth of gold there are much cheaper ways of doing it - a 1990s/2000s non-proof quintuple sovereign in the same George & Dragon design is probably the cheapest way in.

Value wise for the 1893 - I'm not too sure.  To a sovereign collector, this is a rare and desirable coin that certainly would command a strong numismatic premium over bullion value in any grade from VF and above, but there won't be many quintuple sovereign collectors/buyers when and if you come to sell.  'Normal' buyers wouldn't look to pay high numismatic premiums for it so your market is limited.  The 1893 is rarer than the 1887 and 1902 quintuples but a collector would probably buy an 1887 or 1902 before looking for an 1893, so your market is even more limited.

Basically I'm saying buy it if you trust or know that it's genuine and only if you're buying it for its numismatic pleasure.  It's a lovely thing but I would buy many, many other gold coins in preference to it unless it was VERY well priced.  If you can buy it well, fill your boots.

[Stuntman]

Looking at the auction results here, it seems that the hammer price for ones in similar (actually mostly a bit better) condition over the last 3-4 years is in the £1900 to £3000 range.  So the buyer would be paying about 20% on top, so let's call it £2300 to £3600 - but the seller would receive less.

So if you can buy it for £2000 or thereabouts you probably won't lose your shirt.

https://www.londoncoins.co.uk/?page=Pastresults&searchterm=Five+Pounds+1893&searchtype=1

Good luck with your decision 🙂

[goldhunter]

Looks fake in my opinion

[Booky586]

This is just an observation, but the reverse looks like it's had a double strike. If you take a close look at the horses head, forelegs, St Georges helmet crest and the date you can see what looks like a rotated shadow.

Edited April 2, 2021 by Booky586

[goldhunter]

1 hour ago, goldhunter said:

Looks fake in my opinion

I sent the images of the coin to an expert in British Gold Milled coins, he is pretty certain that it is not genuine.

Since he is judging the coin from images he is reluctant to say he is 100% certain it is fake, though highly likely.

 

[dicker]

This does look odd - but I didn't spot it at first - thanks @Booky586 for pointing out the the oddities.  On second look, St G's head and right foot look very queer.

Got to love the into and expertise on TSF!

Best

Dicker

[Midasfrog]

Yes I agree with @dicker something is odd about this coin , St Georges head and the horses head has a double image 

[Bruce06]

Not feel comfortable for those letters on obverse side when you comparing with the one in RM.  I will not go for it.

https://www.royalmint.com/our-coins/ranges/historic-coins/historic-sovereigns/1893-victoria-5-sovereign-vf/

[sixgun]

i have pencilled in image duplication i can immediately see. There is certainly something not right which tells a person to steer clear.

[LawrenceChard]

7 hours ago, fotosh5 said:

Hello,

as i am not experienced with gold sovereigns can someone help with letting me know the value of this five pounds gold sovereign?

This coin has been offered to me but before i purchase it, i would like for more experienced members of our forum to advise me.

thank you in advance for your help.

 

 

6 hours ago, Stuntman said:

The most important point about this coin in my opinion is to be as sure as you can that it's actually a genuine coin.  So I would be buying the seller, rather than the coin.  Are they are a private individual or a reputable coin or bullion dealer?  Are they selling it as guaranteed genuine, and would therefore give you a full refund if the coin was actually a fake (even if it was 22ct gold and full weight)?

It is definitely a collector coin as opposed to a stacker coin, so if you wanted to buy 5 sovereigns' worth of gold there are much cheaper ways of doing it - a 1990s/2000s non-proof quintuple sovereign in the same George & Dragon design is probably the cheapest way in.

Basically I'm saying buy it if you trust or know that it's genuine and only if you're buying it for its numismatic pleasure.  It's a lovely thing but I would buy many, many other gold coins in preference to it unless it was VERY well priced.  If you can buy it well, fill your boots.

 

6 hours ago, goldhunter said:

Looks fake in my opinion

 

5 hours ago, Booky586 said:

This is just an observation, but the reverse looks like it's had a double strike. If you take a close look at the horses head, forelegs, St Georges helmet crest and the date you can what looks like a rotated shadow.

My first thought was to check it was not a gold plated crown, which it appears not to be.

The next thought was "more info please". When you are looking to get help and advice like this, the more information you provide, the easier it is for people to help you, and the better the advice you will get, so:

Is it on ebay?, somewhere else online, jeweller, pawnbroker, coin dealer, neighbour, or man in a pub? If it is on ebay or online, include a link.

Has the seller stated how much he hopes to get?

Has he told you it's genuine? How does he know? Has he shown you any provenance?

@Stuntman has already advised about knowing something about the seller.

Most members have correctly suspected it may be fake, and the apparent double striking is a big clue and a bad sign.

All the above takes precedence over any or what value.

Assuming it is fake, are you still interested in buying it?

Will it be the correct weight (has the owner told you its weight), what about the gold content, if any?

I had a quick look on ebay to see if I recognised your photos, and found a much better looking "replica" https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1893-retro-5-Five-Pound-piece-Souvenir-Gap-Filler-Exact-same-size-as-original/283919820049?hash=item421af0a511:g:IT4AAOSwdQhf3Xl6 1893 retro £5 Five Pound piece. Souvenir Gap-Filler. Exact same size as original

Almost accurately described, priced at £7.25

@goldhunter and others are probably correct in suspecting it is fake.

 

[fotosh5]

thank you all for your feedback, i felt something is wrong as well so i skipped it. I noticed the mirror effect as well as some very strange strikes on the right leg of St George and the 2 back legs of the horse, furthermore the requested price was far bellow the fair value of this coin.

[LawrenceChard]

On 02/04/2021 at 21:33, fotosh5 said:

thank you all for your feedback, i felt something is wrong as well so i skipped it. I noticed the mirror effect as well as some very strange strikes on the right leg of St George and the 2 back legs of the horse, furthermore the requested price was far bellow the fair value of this coin.

Thanks for that.

I, and probably most of the other contributors, would have been interested in more feedback, such as how much, who, and where.

There are many out there getting away with selling fakes. Spreading awareness is a good defence against it.

[Wampum]

It does look like on the reverse there has been a Die/Hub rotation of about 5 degrees between strikes, which is not totally uncommon this would have caused the doubling,I have

seen G111 Crowns with similar and are roughly the same size coin and a similar design. 

The rotation becomes more obvious as if travels from the centre,the edge would also have to show signs unless the fell exactly on the correct alignment a few Denticles down.

If you look a the lettering  especially FID ,there seems to be fish tailing on the lower Serifs (which in quite a few cases are indications of a fake coin)and also the I of IND  as it seems 

offset, However if you look at this example from the Royal Mint ,these are features found on both coins. 

The letters in Victoria look wrong, R especially.    

https://www.royalmint.com/our-coins/ranges/historic-coins/historic-sovereigns/1893-victoria-5-sovereign-vf/

Queen Vic five pound pieces have really good quality fakes floating around especially 1887,however not sure about the 1893 ones.

You would need to gain more information, and trust towards the seller,before you go any further.sorry can not be anymore help however would ask weight, thickness etc to see if matches original specs.  

Edited April 11, 2021 by Wampum

[LawrenceChard]

On 02/04/2021 at 08:30, fotosh5 said:

Hello,

as i am not experienced with gold sovereigns can someone help with letting me know the value of this five pounds gold sovereign?

This coin has been offered to me but before i purchase it, i would like for more experienced members of our forum to advise me.

thank you in advance for your help.

I just came across this 1893 £5 coin imitation which I had remembered seeing some months ago, and which has just re-surfaced.

I call it an imitation because it would be unlikely to fool anybody (almost). While the diameter is about right, it only weighs about 21.84 grams instead of about 39.9; the style and engraving is simplistic and childlike, and the gold content is negligible, probably much lower than the 4.7% showing on the test result, as the Niton tester results are skewed towards the surface, and it had noted (GPP) Gold Plating Probable.

Although it is not highly relevant to the coin discussed in this topic, I find imitation coins quite interesting in their own right. 

The collection with which this arrived also contained about 7 other imitation British coins.

 

Edited October 2, 2021 by LawrenceChard

[LawrenceChard]

On 22/04/2021 at 22:26, LawrenceChard said:

I just came across this 1893 £5 coin imitation which I had remembered seeing some months ago, and which has just re-surfaced.

I call it an imitation because it would be unlikely to fool anybody (almost). While the diameter is about right, it only weighs about 21.84 grams instead of about 39.9; the style and engraving is simplistic and childlike, and the gold content is negligible, probably much lower than the 4.7% showing on the test result, as the Niton tester results are skewed towards the surface, and it had noted (GPP) Gold Plating Probable.

Although it is not highly relevant to the coin discussed in this topic, I find imitation coins quite interesting in their own right. 

The collection with which this arrived also contained about 7 other imitation British coins.

The alloy analysis of the fake I showed is very similar to a number of Chinese fake coins I have been testing recently, except for the gold content shown in this example and test result.

I have just looked on AliExpress, and a very similar looking fake is on offer, possibly not gold plated, for £1.15 plus £1.42 postage! Total under £3. I guess a gold plated one might cost £5 in total.

Laughably, the description includes this information:

 

5 Pounds - George VI
Description
Country	Years	Metal
Great Britain	1893	Brass
Diameter ( mm )	Weight ( gr )	Orientation
±38.8	±	Medal alignment ↑↑
Edge
Lettered

 

It seems that British history and the Royal Family is not fully understood in China. 😎

 

[Bruce06]

7 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

The alloy analysis of the fake I showed is very similar to a number of Chinese fake coins I have been testing recently, except for the gold content shown in this example and test result.

I have just looked on AliExpress, and a very similar looking fake is on offer, possibly not gold plated, for £1.15 plus £1.42 postage! Total under £3. I guess a gold plated one might cost £5 in total.

Laughably, the description includes this information:

 

5 Pounds - George VI
Description
Country	Years	Metal
Great Britain	1893	Brass
Diameter ( mm )	Weight ( gr )	Orientation
±38.8	±	Medal alignment ↑↑
Edge
Lettered

 

It seems that British history and the Royal Family is not fully understood in China. 😎

 

Haha, they must copy the fact sheet from somewhere else, but forget to change the data.  Copy, copy n copy😅

[LawrenceChard]

8 hours ago, Bruce06 said:

Haha, they must copy the fact sheet from somewhere else, but forget to change the data.  Copy, copy n copy😅

I copy that! 😎