Jubilee Sovereign Bust Types

[TheGoldSovereign]

So Marsh discovered the two bust types, aptly named "First" and "Second" types.

He listed a few from 1887 of both types, with the branch mints being R (Rare). It was left with this quote:

Quote

"At this juncture although the total number of coins examined were largely made up of second bust varieties from the M and S mints, in fact only twelve examples were of the first bust type"

Has anyone come across any later years of the first bust type, or is it assumed they were only in 1887? As i've just stumbled upon a 1890 First bust type, and have quite a lot more to go through today. It means re-arranging my whole run because i did not account for new entries that marsh didn't have!

I'll put up some pics later to confirm, will see if i find anymore first

[TheGoldSovereign]

So I got round to checking another 80 Jubilee sovs that i have and came across no other First bust types other than 1887.

Seems this 1890 one could be pretty rare then, anyone else with Jubilee sovs take a look!

note: i highlighted the different areas for people who who aren't aware

[Murph]

Is the top of the crown as high and buried in the edge as much as on the 87s you have?

With that many sovs you might even find other unlisted or poorly catalogued variations.  Have you photographed the jebs to see how many variations you can find?

80 jubilees alone is a lot of sovereigns.

[SovTracker]

Jubilee Sovereigns Type 1
1887 London Mint,
1888 London Mint (rare), Melbourne Mint, Sydney Mint.
1889 Melbourne, Sydney Mint.
1890 London, Sydney Mint.

That's as I recall but the old grey sells ain't what they used to be!!

[TheGoldSovereign]

4 hours ago, SovTracker said:

Jubilee Sovereigns Type 1
1887 London Mint,
1888 London Mint (rare), Melbourne Mint, Sydney Mint.
1889 Melbourne, Sydney Mint.
1890 London, Sydney Mint.

That's as I recall but the old grey sells ain't what they used to be!!

 

Is that what you have? Or where have you seen these referenced?

 

22 hours ago, Murph said:

Is the top of the crown as high and buried in the edge as much as on the 87s you have?

With that many sovs you might even find other unlisted or poorly catalogued variations.  Have you photographed the jebs to see how many variations you can find?

80 jubilees alone is a lot of sovereigns.

Yes its definitely a first bust, you can see the Jeb difference and how far the colon is from the crown too.

When I get a bit further I will post some pics of the run im attempting which is every sov from branches and variations up to 1932

It does leave quite a few duplicates, currently 1/4 way through filling a monster box ?

[SovTracker]

Missing the 1888 & 1890 London

[TheGoldSovereign]

1 hour ago, SovTracker said:

Missing the 1888 & 1890 London

Where have you seen an 1890 though? I've not seen a record of it. Obviously I now know it exists as I have one but it would be nice to guage rarity

[SovTracker]

Can't say I've ever seen either. I think both were in the Iverson Collection but I may be wrong!

[sovereignsteve]

I used to do Jubilee sovs in a big way a few years ago but got bored with them and sold almost all of them. I found Marsh to be rather restricting with these varieties, Spink was far more useful and has listed them all for the last few years. I can't remember when they were elucidated fully but considering the Marsh Golden Jubilee edition was probably being written around the millenium and these varieties weren't fully understood then, it's understandable his work isn't complete.

I have an old 2002 Spink catalogue ( I held off replying to this thread until I had a chance to find it) and it is pretty comprehensive but only lists varieties S3866 - first bust, normal JEB fully on truncation (1887 1888), S3866A - first bust, tiny JEB, stops in arc (1887), S3866B - Second bust, JEB at base of truncation (1887 proof, 1888 1889 1890) and S3866C same as S3866B but with longer horse tail (1891 1892) for the London mint.

This year's edition adds 1890 to S3866, 1891 to S3866B, and two new types; S3866D - first bust, tiny spread JEB, stops in line (for 1887 only) and S3866E - second bust, normal JEB, horse tail medium length (1891 only), but interestingly whether this variety exists is uncertain (lol)

The branch mints are similar with more years being added to each section since 2002.

So as you can see, your 1890 first bust (S3866) is a recent find and appeared in Spink sometime between 2002 and 2013. As regards rarity, Spink has it as VF £350 EF £600 Unc £1000  compared to the 1887 at VF £BV EF £300 Unc £475

The 1888 is even rarer.

[TheGoldSovereign]

16 hours ago, sovereignsteve said:

I used to do Jubilee sovs in a big way a few years ago but got bored with them and sold almost all of them. I found Marsh to be rather restricting with these varieties, Spink was far more useful and has listed them all for the last few years. I can't remember when they were elucidated fully but considering the Marsh Golden Jubilee edition was probably being written around the millenium and these varieties weren't fully understood then, it's understandable his work isn't complete.

I have an old 2002 Spink catalogue ( I held off replying to this thread until I had a chance to find it) and it is pretty comprehensive but only lists varieties S3866 - first bust, normal JEB fully on truncation (1887 1888), S3866A - first bust, tiny JEB, stops in arc (1887), S3866B - Second bust, JEB at base of truncation (1887 proof, 1888 1889 1890) and S3866C same as S3866B but with longer horse tail (1891 1892) for the London mint.

This year's edition adds 1890 to S3866, 1891 to S3866B, and two new types; S3866D - first bust, tiny spread JEB, stops in line (for 1887 only) and S3866E - second bust, normal JEB, horse tail medium length (1891 only), but interestingly whether this variety exists is uncertain (lol)

The branch mints are similar with more years being added to each section since 2002.

So as you can see, your 1890 first bust (S3866) is a recent find and appeared in Spink sometime between 2002 and 2013. As regards rarity, Spink has it as VF £350 EF £600 Unc £1000  compared to the 1887 at VF £BV EF £300 Unc £475

The 1888 is even rarer.

Well that's just perfect thanks!

I know jubs aren't overly desirable, but I do like these slightly rarer or unrecorded dates/variations, makes it a little more fun.

I'll keep my eyes out for anything else new i may come across in the future. I think i'll need to buy a lot more to fill the gaps i have (going for all years all variations)

[Foster88]

On 04/09/2017 at 17:33, TheGoldSovereign said:

Well that's just perfect thanks!

I know jubs aren't overly desirable, but I do like these slightly rarer or unrecorded dates/variations, makes it a little more fun.

I'll keep my eyes out for anything else new i may come across in the future. I think i'll need to buy a lot more to fill the gaps i have (going for all years all variations)

I’m resurrecting an old post here but @TheGoldSovereign did you ever get any further with this?

I wonder if you found any more first variety in your collection?

Edited June 6, 2021 by Foster88

[TheGoldSovereign]

1 hour ago, Foster88 said:

I’m resurrecting an old post here but @TheGoldSovereign did you ever get any further with this?

I wonder if you found any more first variety in your collection?

Hey, this was in my very early days of collecting jubs, I know an awful lot more know mainly thanks to David Iversons research along with Steve Hills publication.

What specifically were you interested in knowing? I'm yet to fully publish everything in my reference but it won't be long now.

[Foster88]

2 hours ago, TheGoldSovereign said:

Hey, this was in my very early days of collecting jubs, I know an awful lot more know mainly thanks to David Iversons research along with Steve Hills publication.

What specifically were you interested in knowing? I'm yet to fully publish everything in my reference but it won't be long now.

Hi @TheGoldSovereign I was directed to this post by @Elements earlier today.

I’ve recently bought a 1889 M mint sovereign, first variety as according to Marsh is R3 in the The Gold Sovereign updated 2021 version.

I was curious to see if you had found any more 1887-1892 of the first variety? According to PCGS there are just 15 graded. This being AU53 with 10 in a higher grade.

[TheGoldSovereign]

1 minute ago, Foster88 said:

Hi @TheGoldSovereign I was directed to this post by @Elements earlier today.

I’ve recently bought a 1889 M mint sovereign, first variety as according to Marsh is R3 in the The Gold Sovereign updated 2021 version.

I was curious to see if you had found any more 1887-1892 of the first variety? According to PCGS there are just 15 graded. This being AU53 with 10 in a higher grade.

Yes of course! They do exist in quite significant amounts in lowers grades, it's the MS coins you want to find!

This series IMHO is underrated for its variety but at the same time I personally find these coins difficult to grade because of the detail, and graders have no idea what they are looking at either so pop reports are a total mess.

DISH has taken large steps in making future grades easier, and I feel PCGS are following it well, NGC as always are clueless as ever and put on their labels whatever the user requests, which is extremely lazy and helps nobody.

[GoldDiggerDave]

https://www.sovr.co.uk/media/pdf/Iverson-embedded-with-letter.pdf
 

Handy for Jubilee heads. 

[Allgoldcoins]

Here a couple of coins for you :- 

 

The First Coin is what I had thought was a 1890 Lon 1st head, in fact I think it may have been catalogued as one originally, however Steve Hill is adamant that this is actually a 1890 Sydney with 'S' mint mark worn away. Shame I didn't have a better picture, but I still think it was A London?

The second is a newly discovered Sydney 1st Head (confirmed) - 1891, to date it is the only one to be found :

 

?? 

[Booky586]

There are still some out there to be found. I picked up this 1889 Sydney 1st head from a recent coin cabinet auction. They'd graded it as EF, but I'd put it lower than that:

[Richym99]

Adding to the photo collection. The 1887M DISH M1 variety. 

 

[Foster88]

Also adding to the photo collection is this 1887 ‘M’ Mint sovereign, DISH M7 with angled ‘J’.... I think.

A coin that has a good obverse, especially in the legend.

Oddly the E in the J.E.B looks like a 5 to me, maybe it’s my old 30 something eyes. 😬

I’m wondering wether to grade this. Would you?

Edited August 1, 2021 by Foster88

[Booky586]

Here's a recent bullion sovereign purchase from here on TSF, an 1888 Melbourne mint. I'm really pleased with this find as it's a 1st legend variety, DISH M9, and rarity R4.

[Booky586]

Some more 1st legend varieties for the photo collection. First one was a sleeper I found on eBay and is an 1887 London mint, DISH L1. The photo doesn't do the colour justice, it's a very yellow gold.

 

And this one is an 1887 Sydney mint, DISH S1. It's a bit oversize on the diameter at 22.43mm.

[Sovhead]

1 hour ago, Booky586 said:

Some more 1st legend varieties for the photo collection. First one was a sleeper I found on eBay and is an 1887 London mint, DISH L1. The photo doesn't do the colour justice, it's a very yellow gold.

 

And this one is an 1887 Sydney mint, DISH S1. It's a bit oversize on the diameter at 22.43mm.

That “very yellow gold” 1887 I’ve sent one exactly the same to Dave for grading should be here in a few weeks 

[Booky586]

53 minutes ago, Sovhead said:

That “very yellow gold” 1887 I’ve sent one exactly the same to Dave for grading should be here in a few weeks 

Good luck with the grade, I'm considering sending this one off too.

[Sovhead]

50 minutes ago, Booky586 said:

Good luck with the grade, I'm considering sending this one off too.

Any pics of yours ?

[Booky586]

11 hours ago, Sovhead said:

Any pics of yours ?

Yes, it's the 1887 London mint I posted photos of yesterday 🖕