Gold sovereign old colour (silver mix) vs new colour (copper mix)

[CazLikesCoins]

3 hours ago, SidS said:

The closest you'll get is the two-tone gold £2 coin. The centre is yellow gold, the outer ring is rose gold.

Is it just the lighting, or does the Charles coin really look more yellow?

It's the lighting. Side by side both coins look identical in terms of colour. The lamp I used was aimed more at Charles than his mum. He certainly looks more Britannia than Sov 22. In the pic at least. 

Edited April 10, 2023 by CazLikesCoins

[Nowhereman]

1 hour ago, CazLikesCoins said:

It's the lighting. Side by side both coins look identical in terms of colour. The lamp I used was aimed more at Charles than his mum. He certainly looks more Britannia than Sov 22. In the pic at least. 

Sneaky hobbitses.

[Britannia47]

4 hours ago, AgCoyote said:

I've only bought modern sovereigns. I think they look fine and particularly enjoy how they contrast when laid with my gold kangaroos and britannias. I've never understood the pink coin bit. It's brown with golden accents. The St. George design is perfect in all ways. 

Having said that, I'm completely open to the idea that I could be gravely mistaken in preferring the modern sovereign to a more silver alloyed coin. It could be my preference is simply for what is new over coins that have some wear and tear. I have to say the photo with the Eagle/Buffalo/Kruggerrand that the Eagle is clearly a more appealing color, and one that is obviously more gold. I would love to see what a newly minted 91.67 gold/ 4.33 copper/ 4 silver sovereign would look like.

Here’s some information about the alloy used in the 22ct Eagle. As I thought,  it’s 3% silver! - only a small amount is needed to tone down the copper to a more pleasant golden look. (The South African Mint declares 8.3% copper on its Krugerrands.)  I believe the Eagle alloy would be perfect for our Sovereigns😀 C’mon RM Wake-up!

[Britannia47]

4 hours ago, SidS said:

The closest you'll get is the two-tone gold £2 coin. The centre is yellow gold, the outer ring is rose gold.

Is it just the lighting, or does the Charles coin really look more yellow?

I remember when the first gold bi-metal £2 coin was issued, many years ago, and was put into 4 coin gold proof sets in lieu of the double sovereign. It was the first time the RM mentioned in the advertising that it was using ‘Yellow’ gold and ‘Red’ gold in the rings - (their description). Interesting I think! 🤔

[Britannia47]

18 hours ago, CazLikesCoins said:

New sovs. Look good to me.

Not 'new' sovs to me but from the current range of Royal Mint releases over the past couple ... I'll get 'me coat.

 

Hi Caz,

Its always difficult to get the correct colour when doing close ups, for various reasons ( Photographic section will explain all) I use a simple I-phone 11  The image can change dramatically as you slowly raise the camera up and down to enhance or eliminate unwanted light/reflections etc. Your QE obverse is showing your own reflection - thus the colour, which in turn makes Charles start to go silvery. However, if the angle is adjusted you can get a cameo affect on proof coins (black) to highlight the relief which often looks good. Experiment, and delete anything that doesn’t look right!😉

Forgot to mention that I often use a photographers GREY card to get a more accurate exposure, as below.

Edited April 10, 2023 by Britannia47

[CazLikesCoins]

18 minutes ago, Britannia47 said:

Hi Caz,

Its always difficult to get the correct colour when doing close ups, for various reasons ( Photographic section will explain all) I use a simple I-phone 11  The image can change dramatically as you slowly raise the camera up and down to enhance or eliminate unwanted light/reflections etc. Your QE obverse is showing your own reflection - thus the colour, which in turn makes Charles start to go silvery. However, if the angle is adjusted you can get a cameo affect on proof coins (black) to highlight the relief which often looks good. Experiment, and delete anything that doesn’t look right!😉

 

Thank you for writing about this. it'll help with my photography. I want to photograph something now  

[KleinerVogel]

I too sometimes wish they would go back to the older way of making the sovs, you can't beat that golden luster. Saying that however, the newer sovs  golden copper look is growing on me slightly and I find they have their own strangely attractive charm.

[CazLikesCoins]

21 minutes ago, KleinerVogel said:

I too sometimes wish they would go back to the older way of making the sovs, you can't beat that golden luster. Saying that however, the newer sovs  golden copper look is growing on me slightly and I find they have their own strangely attractive charm.

I really like the modern copper sovereign. It's still nearly a quarter ounce of gold, costs as much as the monthly grocery bill, and when I can afford one, I feel I'm doing good things instead of wasting my money on frivolities like Sky tv, magazines and takeaways.  I even like the Charlie portrait and if you shop around, they're cheaper than a Gillick.

Edited April 10, 2023 by CazLikesCoins

[MonkeysUncle]

Colour wise I prefer older to newer Sovs. But I prefer 999 to Sovs. 

Colour doesn't stop me buying, but if a nice shiny older Sov was up for the same price as a rosy red one then I'd likely go old.

[Zhorro]

This picture is taken from a recent RM advert:

It shows how the sovereign has changed in colour over time.  I do prefer the colour of the older sovereigns.  This picture probably makes the current sovereign look more rose coloured than it actually is, so they don't do themselves any favours.

[DTL1982]

2 hours ago, Zhorro said:

This picture is taken from a recent RM advert:

It shows how the sovereign has changed in colour over time.  I do prefer the colour of the older sovereigns.  This picture probably makes the current sovereign look more rose coloured than it actually is, so they don't do themselves any favours.

Love that they threw an Edward VIII in there! He had the most handsome coin portrait of any monarch and most people never got to see it at the time. George VI looks good too. I hate the Edward VII portrait though; always looks like he had a huge head and so many examples have all his hair worn off. 

[TheShinyStuff]

I haven't read thus thread in it'd entirety, but have read many similar in the past. So just to add my tuppence worth - the only old sovereign I've ever owned was a 1902 half, and I must say I don't really see what all the fuss is about regarding colour - it looked OK, but nothing special to my eye.

I have a 2015 bullion sov (my first ever good coin) and I quite like the colour although the strike seems pretty soft, which I believe is the normal.

However I have the recent proof sovs and I must say I think they look stunning, and the matte finish on the SotD is terrific, my favourite of all the sovs I own, which to be fair is only 8!

That said, I do intend to get a Gillick or two, just because they look nice!

[SidS]

9 hours ago, DTL1982 said:

Love that they threw an Edward VIII in there! He had the most handsome coin portrait of any monarch and most people never got to see it at the time. George VI looks good too. I hate the Edward VII portrait though; always looks like he had a huge head and so many examples have all his hair worn off. 

The Charles III portrait looks a little like an aged George VI!

[n1k0s]

I understand that in old days the alloy made the coin more durable which was useful because the coin was actually used in transactions.  

But in modern days what is the point of keeping silver or copper in the coin? 

 

[MBTPSilver]

In the case of the Sovereign it's mainly tradition. It's been 22 carat for 200+ years so they keep doing it. There is still the advantage of having a stronger metal though. Pure gold and silver damage easily, so your nice new 24 carat Britannia can arrive with scratches, nicks to the edges etc. By using 22 carat there's a lower chance of that happening.

Some people also buy on the basis that these coins may make some kind of return to being used as currency in the future, so 22 carat would be helpful in that scenario too.

[GreyBeardUK]

Sorry to resurrect this topic - but I thought it was better than starting a new one.

The concensus seems to be clearly agains the red gold (in line with my own opinion).

As a deeply cynical Brit, I have been wondering if the RM are deliberately trying to drive people away from the sovereign. Presumably to the quarter Britannia on which they charge an eye-watering larger premium (=profit).

Could that explain their intransigence in the face of public opprobrium?

[AaaGee]

Does anyone know the years the alloy changed and what was used? Say over the last 150 years.

[GoldenGriffin]

...

Edited November 5, 2023 by GoldenGriffin
deleted due to waffle

[Petra]

1 hour ago, AaaGee said:

Does anyone know the years the alloy changed and what was used? Say over the last 150 years.

The colour change is due to the use of copper, previously silver was used, which is why these ones were the more traditional ‘gold’ colour

[SeverinDigsSovereigns]

It's not that simple though. An 1872 sovereign is certainly more coppery than an 1852, and within the same year you may find different colours from different mint branches. An example is the 1918. Indian 1918 are darker than Canadian 1918, the latter bright yellow and former very similar to the reddish Gillicks and Machins. There must have been a transition in 1860s but after that there were different alloys used.

I attach comparisons between

1)1852 and 1871 both London mint. 1871 on the right is more reddish than 1852 on the left.

2)1890 on the left and 1887 on the right, again both London, and I swapped position to exclude bias from lighting, and you can see 1890 is more coppery.

3)1917C, 1918I, 1919C in that order. Noting how the Indian sovereign is much more coppery than the Canadian ones.

 

All were cracked out from NGC holders so most likely genuine. All have been restored to remove bias from oxidation, too. This should show some variation of colour for sovereigns minted i)with the same design at a long period ii)within a short period of time iii)at different brancg mints.

The colour difference is very obvious to the naked eyes but quite difficult to capture using phone camera, but I hope it's visible.

 

I think the Gillicks are when the sovereigns began appearing in consistently reddish tone. All pre-1837 are pristine yellow. All alloys between William IIII and QEII (exclusive) seem to be going back and forth.

Edited November 5, 2023 by SeverinDigsSovereigns

[DavePa]

I'm a newbie and only just getting my head around collecting pm bullion. 

Have no idea of the background but from a purely "how does it make you feel" point of view the older sovs win hands down. 

I have a date run of silver Brits so far as love collecting stuff. Will be on the lookout for 1963,6 sovs next to commemorate dobs. 

Hi all by the way.

[Petra]

After the first Australian sovereigns were minted there were concerns that they were not up to the standard of the London coins due to their lighter colour. After an assay check it was discovered that there was less copper in the mix, more silver, but actually a little more gold than the London ones.

 

[SilverJacks]

Here’s an interesting example.

The 2016 half sov is .917 gold & .083 copper (roughly)

the 1928 quarter eagle is .900 gold & .100 copper

Yet the coin with more gold, looks more coppery & the coin with more copper looks more goldie.

 

 

[n1k0s]

47 minutes ago, SilverJacks said:

Here’s an interesting example.

The 2016 half sov is .917 gold & .083 copper (roughly)

the 1928 quarter eagle is .900 gold & .100 copper

Yet the coin with more gold, looks more coppery & the coin with more copper looks more goldie.

 

 

very interesting and thanks a lot for sharing

What do you think is the explanation of this? 

[Ignorant]

23 minutes ago, n1k0s said:

very interesting and thanks a lot for sharing

What do you think is the explanation of this? 

In actuality the sovereign is less redish than the eagle is. The fields on the proof sovereign tone darker than the mated finish of the quarter eagle due to contrast and the lighting conditions. If you compare the color of the Indian’s cheek with that of the ultra cameo on the sovereign, the sovereign’s ultra cameo toning is clearly lighter than that of the Indian. Your eyes are simply deceiving you.

Edited November 5, 2023 by Ignorant