What are peoples thoughts on selling gold bullion to dealers without proof of purchase?

[CazLikesCoins]

I recently started buying sovereigns on this forum and I’ve been very pleased with the quality and ease of purchase. Of course I wouldn’t expect proof of purchase to be suppled with old bullion but I do wonder about liquidating in years to come via the likes of The Royal Mint or whatever similar dealer is around what with no documentation. Any and all thoughts welcome.

Edited February 18, 2023 by CazLikesCoins

[Petra]

Think you’ll find that they are more interested in your personal details, … address etc.🤔

[CazLikesCoins]

8 minutes ago, Petra said:

Think you’ll find that they are more interested in your personal details, … address etc.🤔

Happy about that. I love paperwork. I'm quick to whizz out my passport and driver licence the moment any person in authority asks for it. I feel like I'm behaving very well and get all chuffed with myself like I did getting gold stars in junior school  I'll be disappointed if they ask for things I can't provide lol.

Edited February 18, 2023 by CazLikesCoins

[harrygill111]

I woulnt worry, I dont see a future where people sell to dealers en mass. This generation is vaulting, or is savy enough to liquidate tens of thousands at spot + a few % in a couple of days if you have some contacts, or a decent reputation on Facebook, ebay or this forum. 

Dealers would test sovereigns if you did go down that route.

[modofantasma]

From a verification of the metal point of view, I imagine almost any dealer would verify the gold even if you had a letter from the Queen saying it was genuine. Many flaws with this like if I have a genuine invoice for 10 best value bullion sovs I could still be trying to sell 10 counterfeit sovs that weren't those purchased.

Maybe one day if we end up stuck in digital currency land and you need to prove the price you paid for something when you come to sell, or else get taxed on the whole amount automatically it would be useful to have a record but I still don't think a piece of paper from a random will count for much if you're paying via online banking anyway.

I'd keep a record of what you bought when and the price paid and who or where from but wouldn't worry beyond that 

[Zhorro]

I suppose with "proof of purchase" the dealer would be trying to make sure they are not buying stolen goods.  But if you have owned something for 10 years, I wonder how easy it would be to fake a purchase invoice!

[CazLikesCoins]

22 minutes ago, modofantasma said:

From a verification of the metal point of view, I imagine almost any dealer would verify the gold even if you had a letter from the Queen saying it was genuine. Many flaws with this like if I have a genuine invoice for 10 best value bullion sovs I could still be trying to sell 10 counterfeit sovs that weren't those purchased.

Maybe one day if we end up stuck in digital currency land and you need to prove the price you paid for something when you come to sell, or else get taxed on the whole amount automatically it would be useful to have a record but I still don't think a piece of paper from a random will count for much if you're paying via online banking anyway.

I'd keep a record of what you bought when and the price paid and who or where from but wouldn't worry beyond that 

I agree with you that there's often no definitive link between the receipt and original item purchased, making requirement a moot point. I started thinking about this after reading a comment by a bullion dealer requiring a purchase receipt or proof of ownership on the following thread. I doubt I'll reach the kind of weight this member is trying to sell but I'd imagine the rule applies to all sales. 

 

 

Edited February 18, 2023 by CazLikesCoins
link edit

[CazLikesCoins]

11 minutes ago, Zhorro said:

I suppose with "proof of purchase" the dealer would be trying to make sure they are not buying stolen goods.  But if you have owned something for 10 years, I wonder how easy it would be to fake a purchase invoice!

Exactly. I don't want to end up with a load of old gold no main dealer will touch when its pension day and I fancy a world cruise  

[Silverlocks]

Never mind.

Edited February 18, 2023 by Silverlocks

[Darr3nG]

2 hours ago, Silverlocks said:

Never mind.

Brilliant album!

[LawrenceChard]

5 hours ago, CazLikesCoins said:

I agree with you that there's often no definitive link between the receipt and original item purchased, making requirement a moot point. I started thinking about this after reading a comment by a bullion dealer requiring a purchase receipt or proof of ownership on the following thread. I doubt I'll reach the kind of weight this member is trying to sell but I'd imagine the rule applies to all sales. 

 

 

I didn't say we require proof of purchase.

What I actually said was:

We (Chards) would also want full ID, and preferably a purchase receipt or other proof of ownership, but this is or should be stand practice with all or most reputable dealers.

We try to apply a sensible and practical policy.

If a seller seems OK, we do not insist or require a proof of purchase.

If a seller seemed shifty or devious, we would insist on everything, although we might just refuse to deal with them to keep things simple and clean.

😎

[LawrenceChard]

6 hours ago, CazLikesCoins said:

Happy about that. I love paperwork. I'm quick to whizz out my passport and driver licence the moment any person in authority asks for it. I feel like I'm behaving very well and get all chuffed with myself like I did getting gold stars in junior school  I'll be disappointed if they ask for things I can't provide lol.

I often volunteer to show my passport when buying alcohol. I have been told I don't look 25!

😎

[Petra]

44 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

I often volunteer to show my passport when buying alcohol. I have been told I don't look 25!

😎

🫢🤔fair to say … you don’t look 25!😮

[CazLikesCoins]

1 hour ago, LawrenceChard said:

I often volunteer to show my passport when buying alcohol. I have been told I don't look 25!

😎

Thanks for the posts clarifying, Lawrence. I've learned that I need to wear my best frock when I come to your place if I want to sell, and make sure I don't look shifty (Might be difficult. I've been told I've got a wall eye) and to show my passport if I come in drinking alcohol (always a possibility)  

I still want to get my Sovereign Series book autographed if I do visit since you're in it. I like that kind of thing.  

[LawrenceChard]

3 hours ago, CazLikesCoins said:

Thanks for the posts clarifying, Lawrence. I've learned that I need to wear my best frock when I come to your place if I want to sell, and make sure I don't look shifty (Might be difficult. I've been told I've got a wall eye) and to show my passport if I come in drinking alcohol (always a possibility)  

I still want to get my Sovereign Series book autographed if I do visit since you're in it. I like that kind of thing.  

If you would like my autograph in your copy of Marsh, I would be delighted to provide it!

😎

[Bratnia]

Buy 10 Sovs from one dealer and you might use that same receipt as proof of purchase to sell 10 Sovs, multiple times to other dealers. I guess rightfully you should slip each coin into its own numbered plastic sleeve and record when and how much you paid for that coin, so when you come to sell you can match each individual coin precisely with a receipt for when/where/how much paid (along with a bank statement showing how the purchase was funded). Failing that in the US I believe you can opt for either LIFO or FIFO record keeping. In the UK I suspect its section 104 style ... average cost (as though all same/similar coins were purchased at the same average price). Fortunately (most) Sovs (and Britannias) are CGT exempt so that greatly simplifies matters. But rules change so even there good recording keeping is preferable.

The world we're transitioning into is one where the police might take you in for questioning when handling cash/goods of even a few £K, and if you can't prove that to be lawful risk having that and other wealth confiscated as 'proceeds of illicit activities' i.e. the onus is moving more towards proving innocence than that of having to prove guilt. In such a world a paper audit trail (good paperwork) is a must. And I suspect it will only get worse, become even more of a open prison, where paperwork may be cross referenced with physical movements (street cameras, geolocation/phone movements etc.).

[CazLikesCoins]

10 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

If you would like my autograph in your copy of Marsh, I would be delighted to provide it!

😎

My partner and I bought a copy of Marsh last year and on a gloomy day we were reading through it. I spotted you in it and got excited lol. I started going on about how you were on the forum I used and how we can have an adventure to Blackpool to buy gold sovereigns on a cold winters day and I can get my book signed and this, that and the other haha. Big kid lol. We'll probably visit one day. We're not that far away actually. I'm after a birthday sovereign for the other half. Luckily it's not an expensive coin date haha. 

Edited February 19, 2023 by CazLikesCoins

[CazLikesCoins]

9 hours ago, Bratnia said:

Buy 10 Sovs from one dealer and you might use that same receipt as proof of purchase to sell 10 Sovs, multiple times to other dealers. I guess rightfully you should slip each coin into its own numbered plastic sleeve and record when and how much you paid for that coin, so when you come to sell you can match each individual coin precisely with a receipt for when/where/how much paid (along with a bank statement showing how the purchase was funded). Failing that in the US I believe you can opt for either LIFO or FIFO record keeping. In the UK I suspect its section 104 style ... average cost (as though all same/similar coins were purchased at the same average price). Fortunately (most) Sovs (and Britannias) are CGT exempt so that greatly simplifies matters. But rules change so even there good recording keeping is preferable.

The world we're transitioning into is one where the police might take you in for questioning when handling cash/goods of even a few £K, and if you can't prove that to be lawful risk having that and other wealth confiscated as 'proceeds of illicit activities' i.e. the onus is moving more towards proving innocence than that of having to prove guilt. In such a world a paper audit trail (good paperwork) is a must. And I suspect it will only get worse, become even more of a open prison, where paperwork may be cross referenced with physical movements (street cameras, geolocation/phone movements etc.).

I'm probably looking at things from a perspective in a potential future where every transaction is monitored and origin verified, perhaps to a deeper extent than present. Including old gold with no docs. As in the case of selling to the Royal Mint who request statement of origin. It might only be a single question on the sales form, but there it is regardless. I wonder their response if I said I'd dug up a selection of 1960s sovereigns in my garden during a summers afternoon gardening, and if they'd frown on that more than if I said I'd collected them online over a few years. 

I've decided to not give it much more thought as they'll always be someplace to sell, and as you mention, provided receipts may not be genuine regardless of a buyers potential insistence on seeing them. 

[LawrenceChard]

41 minutes ago, CazLikesCoins said:

My partner and I bought a copy of Marsh last year and on a gloomy day we were reading through it. I spotted you in it and got excited lol. I started going on about how you were on the forum I used and how we can have an adventure to Blackpool to buy gold sovereigns on a cold winters day and I can get my book signed and this, that and the other haha. Big kid lol. We'll probably visit one day. We're not that far away actually. I'm after a birthday sovereign for the other half. Luckily it's not an expensive coin date haha. 

As long as you don't want a signed photo of me in my "alternative skiing outfit"!

With any luck, I should be skiing on most cold winter days, and even when I am still "at home", I only get into our office / showroom for a few hours, a few days per week.

Also best to make an appointment to visit. We inroduced an appointment system after lockdown, otherwise we struggle to cope.

😎 

[CazLikesCoins]

28 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

As long as you don't want a signed photo of me in my "alternative skiing outfit"!

With any luck, I should be skiing on most cold winter days, and even when I am still "at home", I only get into our office / showroom for a few hours, a few days per week.

Also best to make an appointment to visit. We inroduced an appointment system after lockdown, otherwise we struggle to cope.

😎

Oh yes we'll phone to make an appointment when ready to visit. I haven't been to Blackpool in 30 years. Mum used to take me on holidays. The amount of money I lost in the penny arcades, was fun though probably enough to buy a sovereign or two over the years, well, by early 70s prices at least. 

Is that skiing outfit a real thing? I thought it was a photoshop lol. That'd raise a few eyebrows on the slopes. How do you keep your no never mind lol. Haha.

 

[Bratnia]

On 19/02/2023 at 10:07, CazLikesCoins said:

I'm probably looking at things from a perspective in a potential future where every transaction is monitored and origin verified, perhaps to a deeper extent than present. Including old gold with no docs. As in the case of selling to the Royal Mint who request statement of origin. It might only be a single question on the sales form, but there it is regardless. I wonder their response if I said I'd dug up a selection of 1960s sovereigns in my garden during a summers afternoon gardening, and if they'd frown on that more than if I said I'd collected them online over a few years. 

I've decided to not give it much more thought as they'll always be someplace to sell, and as you mention, provided receipts may not be genuine regardless of a buyers potential insistence on seeing them. 

Digging up sovereigns would be deemed to be found treasury and becomes the property of the Crown.

[MonkeysUncle]

15 minutes ago, Bratnia said:

Digging up sovereigns would be deemed to be found treasury and becomes the property of the Crown.

If any Crown clown tries to claim ownership of my buried coins he's for a Glasgow kiss.

As is anyone digging in my garden. Cyril the Squirrel asked for permission and prefers nuts to this shiny stuff anyway. 

[Bratnia]

1 minute ago, MonkeysUncle said:

If any Crown clown tries to claim ownership of my buried coins he's for a Glasgow kiss.

As is anyone digging in my garden. Cyril the Squirrel asked for permission and prefers nuts to this shiny stuff anyway. 

Providing you can prove how the purchase was sourced and where/when you bought the gold then no doubt it would be deemed to be yours. Or otherwise its at risk of being confiscated on the grounds of being the proceeds of illicit activities. 

[ShineyMagpie]

i think as others have said or alluded too, is it worth the paper its printed on? if i have a proof of purchase for a sov, how do you know the sov i'm selling links to that paperwork? Even when it comes to things such a Certificate of coin, how do you know they match up.... i buy 2 coins from the mint on release coin number 001 and Coin 999 can you tell which belongs to which coin, normally not.

[Bratnia]

28 minutes ago, ShineyMagpie said:

i think as others have said or alluded too, is it worth the paper its printed on? if i have a proof of purchase for a sov, how do you know the sov i'm selling links to that paperwork? Even when it comes to things such a Certificate of coin, how do you know they match up.... i buy 2 coins from the mint on release coin number 001 and Coin 999 can you tell which belongs to which coin, normally not.

But sadly we've sleep walked into a world where all your movements and activities, including financial, are monitored to the extreme, a Open Prison. Where the onus is upon you to prove your innocence rather than former default of innocent until proven guilty. Dealer perhaps routine investigated to make sure they're compliant with anti-money-laundering requirements, records indicate ShineyMagpie has had regular dealings with that dealer, so HMRC call around and its up to ShineyMagpie to fully account for their gold. Where/when each coin was purchased, how much was paid and how that payment was sourced ...etc. or failing that is at risk of having their stack ceased - under investigation as to possible illicit activities proceeds, along with their bank/savings accounts being frozen/seized. "Mr Magpie was found to have a stack of cash/gold at his home M'lud and can't reliably demonstrate the source of that".

In the US each coin sold can be accounted on a FIFO or LIFO basis (I believe you have to pick one of those and then stick with that). HMRC in contrast uses average price paid for all same/similar items, so in that respect UK accounting is easier for same/similar coins of same/similar value. Bought 10 coins, average price paid £1200, sell one coin for £1500, gain is £300. In the US if you account on a last in first out accounting basis and paid $2000 for your last coin purchase, sell for $1800 then you can declare a capital loss. Or if on a FIFO basis and you paid $600 for the first coin, sell at $1800, then a $1200 capital gain.