Sovereign Colour (a short note after visiting the RM)

[Arganto]

I visited the Royal Mint with my eldest and participated in the tour (I pressed the button to strike my BU 50p and everything). It was overall a worthwhile visit (especially as the tickets were gifted to us 😉) and I noted something interesting during our wanderings around the exhibition part after the tour. There was a display with a George III sovereign alongside a young head Victoria sovereign, the title card reading 'metal composition and colour' or something to that effect. The info card invited the viewer to note the colour difference between the two and how one was more yellow golden than the other because of the small difference in silver content between the coins. There was no mention of the composition of modern sovereigns and their lack of silver. When I had asked our very young tour guide (who had memorised her script very well) about silver in modern sovereigns versus the older examples (asked during the tour before I had seen the above ) she replied by saying that she knew what I was on about but that metal composition of Royal Mint coins was "a secret" and that they "don't tell us about that stuff".

Interesting? Maybe. Maybe not. 

As an aside I was taken aback at some of the poor examples used in the displays. I appreciate a coin with a few miles on it but some of them were pretty bad...there was a cartwheel penny that could have been a bronze blank there was so little detail left 🤣

Despite my moaning I thoroughly enjoyed the time there. The buildings could be nicer though, maybe they should ship the old stonework over from London...?

[bluffer]

but did you enjoy the daffodil wind turbine though?

 

 

 

LOOK SQUIRREL!

[Arganto]

3 minutes ago, bluffer said:

but did you enjoy the daffodil wind turbine though?

 

 

 

LOOK SQUIRREL!

They made sure to to point that out and how they named it, but almost whispered the "it makes 6% of our energy" bit 🤣

[Britannia47]

Here's a comparison photo of an 1817 George III, an 1843 Young Head, and an 2017. 

The 1817 contained about equal amounts of silver and copper at 4.5% which makes it the yellowest of all our sovereigns. The 1843 is slightly less so with about 0.8% silver + copper but still looks good IMO.

However the modern 2017 bullion sovereign looks appalling, with what we believe to be 8.33% copper making it rose or red gold. As you can see it is far different in colour from the first sovereign.

The RM seems reluctant to tell you exactly what the alloy is, or as you intimated, simply don't know. As long as there is 22 carats of gold what does it matter?!!

I could go on but won't...... !  Must get round to doing the tour myself. 🙂

[LawrenceChard]

1 hour ago, Arganto said:

I visited the Royal Mint with my eldest and participated in the tour (I pressed the button to strike my BU 50p and everything). It was overall a worthwhile visit (especially as the tickets were gifted to us 😉) and I noted something interesting during our wanderings around the exhibition part after the tour. There was a display with a George III sovereign alongside a young head Victoria sovereign, the title card reading 'metal composition and colour' or something to that effect. The info card invited the viewer to note the colour difference between the two and how one was more yellow golden than the other because of the small difference in silver content between the coins. There was no mention of the composition of modern sovereigns and their lack of silver. When I had asked our very young tour guide (who had memorised her script very well) about silver in modern sovereigns versus the older examples (asked during the tour before I had seen the above ) she replied by saying that she knew what I was on about but that metal composition of Royal Mint coins was "a secret" and that they "don't tell us about that stuff".

Interesting? Maybe. Maybe not. 

As an aside I was taken aback at some of the poor examples used in the displays. I appreciate a coin with a few miles on it but some of them were pretty bad...there was a cartwheel penny that could have been a bronze blank there was so little detail left 🤣

Despite my moaning I thoroughly enjoyed the time there. The buildings could be nicer though, maybe they should ship the old stonework over from London...?

"but that metal composition of Royal Mint coins was "a secret" and that they "don't tell us about that stuff"."

That's almost unbelievable, but actually almost predictable, if that's not an oxymoron.

It is certainly laughable.

I hope you advised her to look on TSF or the Chards website.

😎

[Arganto]

I spent a good amount of time perusing @LawrenceChard's old website dedicated to cataloguing metal compositions of sovereigns through time. It was enlightening and highlighted the change as it progressed.

*Speak of the man and he shall appear 😎

Edited July 26, 2022 by Arganto
Spelling and acknowledgement of Mr Chard

[Arganto]

3 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

I hope you advised her to look on TSF or the Chards website.

I felt that the poor lass was uncomfortable 'off script' so left her alone after her answer 🤣 I was going to ask about milk spots on the RM's silver bullion but feared it may have ruined her week...

[ChrisSilver]

26 minutes ago, Britannia47 said:

Here's a comparison photo of an 1817 George III, an 1843 Young Head, and an 2017. 

The 1817 contained about equal amounts of silver and copper at 4.5% which makes it the yellowest of all our sovereigns. The 1843 is slightly less so with about 0.8% silver + copper but still looks good IMO.

However the modern 2017 bullion sovereign looks appalling, with what we believe to be 8.33% copper making it rose or red gold. As you can see it is far different in colour from the first sovereign.

The RM seems reluctant to tell you exactly what the alloy is, or as you intimated, simply don't know. As long as there is 22 carats of gold what does it matter?!!

I could go on but won't...... !  Must get round to doing the tour myself. 🙂

Thanks for sharing.

Not just the colour but the quality of the strike also is vastly different. Older sovereigns seeming to have a much higher standard of quality of strike, IMO.  

[LawrenceChard]

56 minutes ago, Arganto said:

I felt that the poor lass was uncomfortable 'off script' so left her alone after her answer 🤣 I was going to ask about milk spots on the RM's silver bullion but feared it may have ruined her week...

I feel sure the Royal Mint would welcome the feedback!

😎

[LawrenceChard]

44 minutes ago, ChrisSilver said:

Thanks for sharing.

Not just the colour but the quality of the strike also is vastly different. Older sovereigns seeming to have a much higher standard of quality of strike, IMO.  

Yes, indeed.

I think some of the answer lies in higher relief or depth of engraving. Also old-fashioned mechanical pantographic reducing machines were, and still possibly are, better than modern laser scanners combined with however the RM engrave modern dies.

😎

[Arganto]

14 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

Also old-fashioned mechanical pantographic reducing machines were, and still possibly are, better than modern laser scanners

I found the old machinery fascinating, I was not so impressed with the notion of letting a computer do a lot of the leg work. New isn't always improved.

[SidS]

1 hour ago, ChrisSilver said:

Thanks for sharing.

Not just the colour but the quality of the strike also is vastly different. Older sovereigns seeming to have a much higher standard of quality of strike, IMO.  

It's all down to relief. Which modern coins lack.

Edited July 26, 2022 by SidS

[paulmerton]

The last regular tour I went on was done by a bloke who actually used to work the other side of the glass. He could certainly answer some questions that the others wouldn't have been able to, but it wouldn't have surprised me if he also wouldn't have had any idea about the makeup of a sovereign - those are made in a completely different building, after all!

 

[Pete]

Keeping the composition a secret sounds a load of BS to me.
Correct me if I am wrong but if you put a coin into an XRF tester don't you get the entire composition of elements by percentage ?
If not an XRF maybe a laser spectrometer ( LIBS ) ?
Apologies as I haven't done any homework to check just suggesting these.