Why the different prices for 'ordinary' Britannias?

[RDHC]

O.K. I know the fundamental answer perfectly well: supply and demand. Also, I know that some series with a unique design - e.g. with Britannia driving a chariot or posed by cliffs with a lion beside her - command a premium (perhaps also the oriental border ones). I can understand that. And maybe some some prefer the larger size of the 2013 issue (haven't checked the price for that). But why does, say, a 2017 Britannia usually fetch quite a bit more than a 2021 one? Is there a hidden message here about the scarcity of the original mintage in 2017 or are the 2021 examples simply flooding out of the Mint? I notice that Chards have a special offer on the 2017  Britannias, with a big difference from the usual price, a price which is confirmed by what, say, Bullionby post are apparently asking for the 2017s. The offer started me thinking on this subject. Perhaps Chards have unearthed and bought a large cache of 2017s that they need to shift?!

I rather like the 2017 design: its got the latest royal head and the standard, rather beautiful Philip Nathan figure of Britannia (more attractive - not to say slightly sensuous - in my opinion, than the ones in the special issues), and the background is uncluttered with security symbols, whilst having  pleasing lines radiating out. So, does everyone share my aesthetic judgment, which seems unlikely, and would that account for the price difference? I'm a bit puzzled.

[LawrenceChard]

56 minutes ago, rdhcustance said:

O.K. I know the fundamental answer perfectly well: supply and demand. Also, I know that some series with a unique design - e.g. with Britannia driving a chariot or posed by cliffs with a lion beside her - command a premium (perhaps also the oriental border ones). I can understand that. And maybe some some prefer the larger size of the 2013 issue (haven't checked the price for that). But why does, say, a 2017 Britannia usually fetch quite a bit more than a 2021 one? Is there a hidden message here about the scarcity of the original mintage in 2017 or are the 2021 examples simply flooding out of the Mint? I notice that Chards have a special offer on the 2017  Britannias, with a big difference from the usual price, a price which is confirmed by what, say, Bullionby post are apparently asking for the 2017s. The offer started me thinking on this subject. Perhaps Chards have unearthed and bought a large cache of 2017s that they need to shift?!

I rather like the 2017 design: its got the latest royal head and the standard, rather beautiful Philip Nathan figure of Britannia (more attractive - not to say slightly sensuous - in my opinion, than the ones in the special issues), and the background is uncluttered with security symbols, whilst having  pleasing lines radiating out. So, does everyone share my aesthetic judgment, which seems unlikely, and would that account for the price difference? I'm a bit puzzled.

Correct on almost every point, except for:

"Perhaps Chards have unearthed and bought a large cache of 2017s that they need to shift?!"

Sure @ChardsCoinandBullionDealer recently bought some.

Not a large cache, and we don't need to shift them, but we exercise sensible stock management.

If you want 1000 x 2021, we can supply them.

If you wanted to buy 1000 x 2017, you could probably not source them even if you were willing to pay double or treble the current price.

they do look nice:

 

 

 

[RDHC]

Thank you, Lawrence, for a helpful and concise reply. You put it very well about 1000 x 2021 versus 1000 x 2017. That makes very good sense.

And I'm glad that you agree about the aesthetics of the 2017. The radiating lines do seem to add something over the very plain background of some of the early Britannias. I know that in the last resort it's all about bullion value, but I do like my coins to be as attractive as possible.

I reckon that the Philip Nathan figure of Britannia will become an absolute classic and last for years to come, rivalling the seated Britannia that some of us probably know best from well-worn Victorian pennies - still in circulation in my childhood at least. (I can make this prediction safe in the knowledge that at my age I am very unlikely to be around long enough to be proved wrong.) What do others think?

[CollectorNo1]

Hi...

Thought I would add my pennies worth...the 2017 Britannia's will always command a little more premium as its the 200th anniversary of the Gold sovereign. 

Regards...

[RDHC]

6 minutes ago, CollectorNo1 said:

Hi...

Thought I would add my pennies worth...the 2017 Britannia's will always command a little more premium as its the 200th anniversary of the Gold sovereign. 

Regards...

 Hadn't thought of that, but it makes good sense. Thank you.

I notice, however, that  a little bit of added age always makes a difference, even, say, in very recent sovereigns,  for example the 2020s as against the 2021s. I suppose that people simply don't sell something that they have recently bought  perhaps because they are keeping the coins for numismatic reasons or perhaps because they are waiting for a substantial long term rise in the value of gold.

[CollectorNo1]

Commemorative years will always command a premium..but not always the rule...1989,2002,2005,2012,2017 etc...Also privy marks and mintages but I'm sure you know that....Like the Silver Britannia's....the older versions of Britannia on her chariot, the face of Britannia, sitting with the lion..privy marks the list is endless,these will always be a higher premium than your bog standard Britannia...but saying that I don't think our Britannia is bog standard...one of the nicest if not the best design on a coin in the world....IMO.👍

 

[richatthecroft]

7 hours ago, rdhcustance said:

rather like the 2017 design: its got the latest royal head and the standard, rather beautiful Philip Nathan figure of Britannia (more attractive - not to say slightly sensuous - in my opinion, than the ones in the special issues), and the background is uncluttered with security symbols, whilst having  pleasing lines radiating out. So, does everyone share my aesthetic judgment, which seems unlikely, and would that account for the price difference? I'm a bit puzzled.

I’m a Britannia admirer too, lovely coins.

My experience of them however, tells me that although they are chiefly a very nice design, particularly the early special design releases- they were produced in very high numbers, and I would be very wary of paying too high a premium for the Bu’s- ATS Bullion often have sales of them at 1- 2% above spot, including the special reverses.   The Oriental Britannia was from memory, a three year issue from 2018, and these appear to attract a bit more interest- likely because of the 5,000 coin issue limit rather than the 10’s of thousands typically produced and sold in tubes. 

The same goes for premiums of the proof issues- particularly in larger denominations and full sets, again, from my experience be wary of paying high premiums- they are generally unloved and a hard sell- apart from some of the very low mintage later Proof releases notably (and obviously) the 2014 Proof issue.
 

In terms of the question you posed of why the 2017 Britannia might attract more premium- I don’t think the 200th anniversary of the Sovereign has any consequence.

The Britannia had its own anniversary in 2017- the 30th Anniversary of the Britannia.

But not all 2017 Bu 1oz Gold Britannia coins were created equally- as per the photo below- a limited number- 7,030- were produced with a tiny Trident Privy mark- exemplified in the screenshot from the Chards website- these might well attract some premium, but my advice is tread carefully. 
 

Now you see it:
 

 

Now you don’t: 

 

 

 

Edited August 5, 2021 by richatthecroft
Accuracy

[CollectorNo1]

I always thought and from lots of comments the 2017 was the 200th anniversary  of Benedetto Pistrucci first design of our modern day George and the Dragon design on our beloved sovereign?????

[richatthecroft]

8 minutes ago, CollectorNo1 said:

I always thought and from lots of comments the 2017 was the 200th anniversary  of Benedetto Pistrucci first design of our modern day George and the Dragon design on our beloved sovereign?????

 

2017 was indeed the 200th Anniversary of the Modern Sovereign- and as such, the 2017 Bu Sovereign and Half Sovereign are adorned with the 200 year Anniversary privy mark and the Proof issues and the Bu 5 Pound Sovereign and the SOTD Sovereign are resplendent with the Garter surrounding Pistrucci's George slaying the Dragon.

 

The Trident Privy on the 2017 Britannia denotes the 30th Anniversary of the Britannia.  

Edited August 5, 2021 by richatthecroft

[CollectorNo1]

Yes I know that but the forum member was asking why the 2020 and 2021 sovs were a different price..I was just explaining that some years command different premiums..I.e 200 years 1817 2017 200th anniversary of BP's original design is a factor when it comes to higher premium prices as do other commemorative years.

Regards.

[AgAuEire]

2007 is a good looking coin. 

Edited August 6, 2021 by AgAuEire

[CollectorNo1]

31 minutes ago, AgAuEire said:

2007 is a good looking coin. 

Yes one of my favs.. I have one ..🙂🙂🙂

[richatthecroft]

1 hour ago, CollectorNo1 said:

Yes I know that but the forum member was asking why the 2020 and 2021 sovs were a different price..I was just explaining that some years command different premiums..I.e 200 years 1817 2017 200th anniversary of BP's original design is a factor when it comes to higher premium prices as do other commemorative years.

 

The OP didn't mention, or ask anything about Sovereigns.   The title of his topic is 'Why the different prices for 'ordinary' Britannias?' 

 

But you did: 

 

3 hours ago, CollectorNo1 said:

Hi...

Thought I would add my pennies worth...the 2017 Britannia's will always command a little more premium as its the 200th anniversary of the Gold sovereign. 

Regards...

 

And I was correcting your response, as with the upmost of respect, my opinion is that I don't think your initial statement is an accurate reflection of why 2017 Britannia Gold 1oz Bu coins command a higher premium.  

Edited August 5, 2021 by richatthecroft
Grammar, as usual!

[CollectorNo1]

7 minutes ago, richatthecroft said:

 

The OP didn't mention, or ask anything about Sovereigns.   The title of his topic is 'Why the different prices for 'ordinary' Britannias?' 

 

But you did: 

 

 

And I was correcting your response, as with the upmost of respect, my opinion is that I don't think your initial statement is an accurate reflection of why 2017 Britannia Gold 1oz Bu coins command a higher premium.  

We all have our own opinions that's what makes the world an exciting place🌝🌝

[richatthecroft]

41 minutes ago, CollectorNo1 said:

We all have our own opinions that's what makes the world an exciting place🌝🌝

 

Agreed- debate and opinion is always good to have but I wanted to add some accuracy.  

If you read the OP's initial post, he is clearly very enthusiastic about the Britannia and if he's thinking about putting down a large wedge of his hard earned cash on a 2017 Britannia then he needs the question answered accurately.

To this end, I wanted to provide him with accuracy- and to clarify, its irrelevant that 2017 marked the Anniversary of the Modern Sovereign in terms of the Sovereign  release having any bearing on the premiums asked for a 2017 1oz Bu Britannia.

 

To go further, I don't think @LawrenceChard accurately answered the question question the OP made:

 

5 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

Correct on almost every point, except for:

"Perhaps Chards have unearthed and bought a large cache of 2017s that they need to shift?!"

Sure @ChardsCoinandBullionDealer recently bought some.

Not a large cache, and we don't need to shift them, but we exercise sensible stock management.

If you want 1000 x 2021, we can supply them.

If you wanted to buy 1000 x 2017, you could probably not source them even if you were willing to pay double or treble the current price.

they do look nice:

 

 

 

 

There is some common sense logic to what Lawrence stated but the fact is, a plain 2017 Britannia does not generally attract anymore premium than a freshly minted one- Chards actually have them on offer however; in 2017 a tiny amount of the 2017's- 7,030 to be precise, were struck with the Trident Privy mark (as opposed to 10's of thousands and likely over a hundred thousand of the plain 2017's) and it is these 30 Year Anniversary coins that might well attract premium, a point that Lawrence didn't pick up on (not that I expect him to pick up on everything) but in my opinion, that would explain why *some* 2017 Britannia coins attract premium.

Chards have both varieties listed, (as do Bullion by Post- I picked this company because they often have listings of out of stock items, the 2017 Anniversary Britannia is often out of stock).

Chards:

Plain 2017- £1349   https://www.chards.co.uk/2017-gold-britannia-one-ounce-bullion-coin/883

Privy 2017- (indicative price out of stock price: £1423) https://www.chards.co.uk/2017-gold-britannia-30th-anniversary-one-ounce-bullion-coin/3366

 

Bullion By Post:

Plain 2017- £1451  https://www.bullionbypost.co.uk/gold-coins/britannia-1oz-gold-coin/2017-britannia-one-ounce-gold-coin/

Privy 2017- (indicative price out of stock price: £1550)  https://www.bullionbypost.co.uk/britannia-1oz-gold-coin/Specific-Year-Gold-Britannias-1oz/1oz-gold-britannia-anniversary-coin/

 

Hope this provides clarity to you and answers your question @rdhcustance

Edited August 5, 2021 by richatthecroft

[richatthecroft]

.

Edited August 5, 2021 by richatthecroft

[RDHC]

7 hours ago, richatthecroft said:

 

Agreed- debate and opinion is always good to have but I wanted to add some accuracy.  

If you read the OP's initial post, he is clearly very enthusiastic about the Britannia and if he's thinking about putting down a large wedge of his hard earned cash on a 2017 Britannia then he needs the question answered accurately.

To this end, I wanted to provide him with accuracy- and to clarify, its irrelevant that 2017 marked the Anniversary of the Modern Sovereign in terms of the Sovereign  release having any bearing on the premiums asked for a 2017 1oz Bu Britannia.

 

To go further, I don't think @LawrenceChard accurately answered the question question the OP made:

 

 

There is some common sense logic to what Lawrence stated but the fact is, a plain 2017 Britannia does not generally attract anymore premium than a freshly minted one- Chards actually have them on offer however; in 2017 a tiny amount of the 2017's- 7,030 to be precise, were struck with the Trident Privy mark (as opposed to 10's of thousands and likely over a hundred thousand of the plain 2017's) and it is these 30 Year Anniversary coins that might well attract premium, a point that Lawrence didn't pick up on (not that I expect him to pick up on everything) but in my opinion, that would explain why *some* 2017 Britannia coins attract premium.

Chards have both varieties listed, (as do Bullion by Post- I picked this company because they often have listings of out of stock items, the 2017 Anniversary Britannia is often out of stock).

Chards:

Plain 2017- £1349   https://www.chards.co.uk/2017-gold-britannia-one-ounce-bullion-coin/883

Privy 2017- (indicative price out of stock price: £1423) https://www.chards.co.uk/2017-gold-britannia-30th-anniversary-one-ounce-bullion-coin/3366

 

Bullion By Post:

Plain 2017- £1451  https://www.bullionbypost.co.uk/gold-coins/britannia-1oz-gold-coin/2017-britannia-one-ounce-gold-coin/

Privy 2017- (indicative price out of stock price: £1550)  https://www.bullionbypost.co.uk/britannia-1oz-gold-coin/Specific-Year-Gold-Britannias-1oz/1oz-gold-britannia-anniversary-coin/

 

Hope this provides clarity to you and answers your question @rdhcustance

Thank you. Very helpful.

However, even the thousands x10 of the ordinary 2017 Britannias are more expensive if genuinely in stock (except in the current Chards offer) than the 2021 version, and the Bullionbypost in-stock price is very steep at £1449 (o.k. their prices usually are like that), so most of them must have 'gone to ground'. Most dealers say 'out of stock', and ATS states that for all 2014-2020 Britannias. I notice the same pattern with modern sovereigns - even the 2020 one seems to be more expensive than its 2021 successor. As I say, my best guess at an explanation is that people tend to hoard even run-of-the-mill recent issues for either speculative or numismatic reasons.

[richatthecroft]

21 minutes ago, rdhcustance said:

Thank you. Very helpful.

Thanks.  

24 minutes ago, rdhcustance said:

However, even the thousands x10 of the ordinary 2017 Britannias are more expensive if genuinely in stock (except in the current Chards offer) than the 2021 version, and the Bullionbypost in-stock price is very steep at £1449 (o.k. their prices usually are like that), so most of them must have 'gone to ground'.

Except when they have not gone to ground, but have resurfaced in a degree of quantity, as exemplified by the offer Chards have currently for the 2017 year date.  

As @LawrenceChard stated, Chards don't 'need' to sell their inventory of these 2017's but they have obviously bought plenty in, and as Lawrence stated  'we exercise sensible stock management'.

As I stated in my initial post above, I am a fan of the Britannia and I do like larger denominations of the coin but all I'm saying is that paying any more than a sensible, low premium for Britannia issues that run into the many tens/ hundreds of thousands of units produced might not be a good idea, or need be- as per the Chards offer. 

I'm certainly not a Gold naysayer I continue to buy Gold, but my cautionary tale of paying large premiums for these beautiful Britannia coins- both Bu & Proof- comes from personal experience- granted, my experience is from the times of when the PM market was somewhat cooler- the effects of the pandemic have brought more buyers to the market and its been hot for quite some time.  

I'm certain that people who are lot more savvy than me can atest to the point I am attempting to put across, @Pete, @SilverMike @Roy @kneehow2018

[SilverMike]

1 hour ago, richatthecroft said:

Thanks.  

Except when they have not gone to ground, but have resurfaced in a degree of quantity, as exemplified by the offer Chards have currently for the 2017 year date.  

As @LawrenceChard stated, Chards don't 'need' to sell their inventory of these 2017's but they have obviously bought plenty in, and as Lawrence stated  'we exercise sensible stock management'.

As I stated in my initial post above, I am a fan of the Britannia and I do like larger denominations of the coin but all I'm saying is that paying any more than a sensible, low premium for Britannia issues that run into the many tens/ hundreds of thousands of units produced might not be a good idea, or need be- as per the Chards offer. 

I'm certainly not a Gold naysayer I continue to buy Gold, but my cautionary tale of paying large premiums for these beautiful Britannia coins- both Bu & Proof- comes from personal experience- granted, my experience is from the times of when the PM market was somewhat cooler- the effects of the pandemic have brought more buyers to the market and its been hot for quite some time.  

I'm certain that people who are lot more savvy than me can atest to the point I am attempting to put across, @Pete, @SilverMike @Roy @kneehow2018

Agreed @richatthecroft, I've held lots of Brits also, mainly proof gold, 1/4oz to 5oz (and I had a platinum run of 1/4's until recently). I collected them as I genuinely like the designs, there isn't really a bad one as far as Im concerned. But.... in my opinion they are a spot play + 10% to 15% premium in raw, popular graded 70's maybe 30%. There are one or two of the designs that are marginally semi-numismatic that do command a slightly higher premiums and may increase over time (2014 comes to mind). They are one of those coins you stack, in proof or bullion because you like them but I don't think the average premium above spot will move much anytime soon, there will always be a few outliers and auction results that seem to break the ceiling but when the dust settles and the herd moves on these go back to their average.

That said, as Richard mentions, British coins in terms of grading are still at an early stage and just starting to get global interest compared to the US etc, the 'big' British coins doing very well but they are completely detached form their metal price, so maybe in time if Brits may become more sort after, but that in my opinion is a risky strategy to buy into and they should be collected because you like them but keeping an eye on spot. Can't really comment on the bullion ranges, these probably perform differently.

Edited August 6, 2021 by SilverMike

[kneehow2018]

What @richatthecroft said... except I am certainly not more savvy about this excellent hobby! Just like to add that along with the trident the 2017 limited edition coins were the first to display the 'guilloche' pattern to the obverse.

Also having read the last couple of posts above, the out-of-stock prices may not always give a true indication of the price when the coin/s become available. I've noticed that Atkinsons started selling the 1oz gold Griffin nearer to £2000. And it would appear that the out of stock at ATS Bullion is much less https://www.atsbullion.com/one-ounce-gold-coins/   However try clicking on the Griffin or Dragon... (1 x Griffin was in stock yesterday). Follow the leader in supply and demand?

 

 

Edited August 6, 2021 by kneehow2018
add name

[Britannia47]

Just a quick photo comparison of the first 1987 & the basic 2017.....

 

[richatthecroft]

5 minutes ago, Britannia47 said:

Just a quick photo comparison of the first 1987 & the basic 2017.....

 

Both beautiful coins in their own way- I prefer the older 22ct Gold, the strike on them is pronounced and they are much more hardy- just a glance at a 999.9 Gold Brit seems to leave a mark on them! 😂 

[kneehow2018]

24 minutes ago, richatthecroft said:

just a glance at a 999.9 Gold Brit seems to leave a mark on them! 😂 

Agreed - so adds premium the spotless ones that I'll put up shortly 😁

[LawrenceChard]

17 hours ago, CollectorNo1 said:

Hi...

Thought I would add my pennies worth...the 2017 Britannia's will always command a little more premium as its the 200th anniversary of the Gold sovereign. 

Regards...

So, @ChardsCoinandBullionDealer are making a mistake by pricing them at a small discount, (compared with 2021), rather than a little more premium. Perhaps that 3.9 to 4.2% premium should be slightly higher?

Edited August 6, 2021 by LawrenceChard
typo

[LawrenceChard]

16 hours ago, rdhcustance said:

 Hadn't thought of that, but it makes good sense. Thank you.

I notice, however, that  a little bit of added age always makes a difference, even, say, in very recent sovereigns,  for example the 2020s as against the 2021s. I suppose that people simply don't sell something that they have recently bought  perhaps because they are keeping the coins for numismatic reasons or perhaps because they are waiting for a substantial long term rise in the value of gold.

Older does not always translate to higher value. While it does tend to have an influence, there are usually many other factors.