Sovereign Errors, Overdates and Varieties

[dicker]

This is definitely my favourite thread on TSF!

[Booky586]

On 25/11/2023 at 10:19, Orpster said:

I had what was likely my best ever variety coin yesterday, the absolute find of my collecting lifetime. 
Bought pretty much sight unseen because of the fact it was graded and a Melbourne shield which I have a mild obsession with, all I had was a blurry picture of the obverse.  This is the coin

I had only seen a picture of the front prior to delivery but had checked the PCGS entry so had already spotted the die clash, so when it turned up and had both a clashed die error and medallic die alignment I was super excited.  Turns out it is one of only 5 or 6 known examples, it is in Marsh as an R3 (~59B) but research suggests it even rarer with only a handful of known examples

Here is a closer pic of the front so you can see the die clash

The twin of the one in the Drake Sterling article.  I can also see this coin has been through auction at least once without being spotted

https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-ZOUVL/australia-sovereign-1872-m-melbourne-mint-victoria-pcgs-au-55?fbclid=IwAR0ifmex9-fztDPLRW4ZLGvZj8Mfs0yiTqJWmqnZVpzzkw2Z0SADUoXn7ts

And who knows how many other pairs of hands.  I am a lucky lucky chap

 

 

Really nice find and well spotted!

[dicker]

@Booky586 It would be great to know what grade this achieves if you re-grade.

[Booky586]

1 hour ago, dicker said:

@Booky586 It would be great to know what grade this achieves if you re-grade.

Are you referring to the 1872-M die rotation error?

I wish it was mine to re-grade but @Orpster found this gem, he might be able to answer.

[dicker]

Sorry - yes meant @Orpster

Half asleep on the train to London!

[Orpster]

9 minutes ago, dicker said:

Sorry - yes meant @Orpster

Half asleep on the train to London!

Its away with NGC now, will keep you updated  

[Britannia47]

Relating to @Orpsters 1872 shield, I’ve noticed both NGC & PCGS often fail io align the obverse portrait of Victoria without consideration for the alignment of the shield on the reverse, which can be at an angle!

If the Shield is positioned first, vertically and parallel to the slab sides, then this will allow the obverse to take care of itself. The  tilt of the head will be slightly rearwards but not noticeably so. However, on this particular coin there is also a reference point by centralising the date eg 1872 in the bottom segment of the slab and using an imaginary vertical line between the 18 & 72 .A slight clockwise rotation will achieve this, so when it’s flipped the shield is still correctly positioned albeit-upside down.

Photos ( not mine ) illustrate the problem. If anyone on TSF has a graded shield would love to see it!……

 

I

 

 

 

[Orpster]

17 minutes ago, Britannia47 said:

Relating to @Orpsters 1872 shield, I’ve noticed both NGC & PCGS often fail io align the obverse portrait of Victoria without consideration for the alignment of the shield on the reverse, which can be at an angle!

If the Shield is positioned first, vertically and parallel to the slab sides, then this will allow the obverse to take care of itself. The  tilt of the head will be slightly rearwards but not noticeably so. However, on this particular coin there is also a reference point by centralising the date eg 1872 in the bottom segment of the slab and using an imaginary vertical line between the 18 & 72 .A slight clockwise rotation will achieve this, so when it’s flipped the shield is still correctly positioned albeit-upside down.

Photos ( not mine ) illustrate the problem. If anyone on TSF has a graded shield would love to see it!……

 

I

 

 

 

 

With this London 1872 though I think it is tilted both sides, 

  

This 1878 the shield is tilted the other way

  

This 1881 seems to be aligned on the obverse, again the shield on a tilt

 

But this 1884 the shield is aligned, slight tilt on the obverse

 

I don't have enough graded to really have a worthwhile sample, but of the handful I have no real consistency at all

[Britannia47]

2 hours ago, Orpster said:

 

With this London 1872 though I think it is tilted both sides, 

  

This 1878 the shield is tilted the other way

  

This 1881 seems to be aligned on the obverse, again the shield on a tilt

 

But this 1884 the shield is aligned, slight tilt on the obverse

 

I don't have enough graded to really have a worthwhile sample, but of the handful I have no real consistency at all

Thanks for showing your slabs.  Looks like there is always going to be inconsistencies with coin alignment as apposed to medal alignment. I find ‘tilting’ shields irritating and completely avoidable. More care should be taken by the grading companies IMO. However, maybe I’m just being too fussy….My ‘shields’ are all raw!

[GoldDiggerDave]

9 hours ago, Britannia47 said:

Thanks for showing your slabs.  Looks like there is always going to be inconsistencies with coin alignment as apposed to medal alignment. I find ‘tilting’ shields irritating and completely avoidable. More care should be taken by the grading companies IMO. However, maybe I’m just being too fussy….My ‘shields’ are all raw!

I’m surprised, no one’s picked up on the use of the yellow highlighter pen circled around the date on the label.   It’s on every  slab I see. 

[paulmerton]

6 minutes ago, GoldDiggerDave said:

I’m surprised, no one’s picked up on the use of the yellow highlighter pen circled around the date on the label.   It’s on every  slab I see. 

Isn't that a security feature?

[Britannia47]

2 hours ago, GoldDiggerDave said:

I’m surprised, no one’s picked up on the use of the yellow highlighter pen circled around the date on the label.   It’s on every  slab I see. 

Please elaborate…..0/10 for observational skills!🤔

[paulmerton]

15 minutes ago, Britannia47 said:

Please elaborate…..0/10 for observational skills!🤔

It's on every slab cos it's the UV security feature 🤣

[paulmerton]

It's much less visible to the naked eye on the current left-aligned slabs.

Edited December 6, 2023 by paulmerton

[mpiokpee]

Its a anti-counterfeiting mark that is more visible in ultraviolet (black light) - as well as the "NGC Authentic" mark in the center of the label - refer to the image shown.

 

[Spyder]

What do people think of this 1876 Young head. Look at the Vi(C)toria

Edited December 6, 2023 by Spyder

[GoldDiggerDave]

28 minutes ago, Spyder said:

What do people think of this 1876 Young head. Look at the Vi(C)toria

Can you take a few pictures ideally one square on. 

[Spyder]

Double post

 

Edited December 6, 2023 by Spyder

[Spyder]

Just now, Spyder said:

Can not do better as coin not with me yet. Need to get it from Eastbourne

[GoldDiggerDave]

23 minutes ago, Spyder said:

Can not do better as coin not with me yet. Need to get it from Eastbourne

It’s something I have seen before, not over struck but a letter that looks a different font.  Some V’s are wide and other look slightly italic.  
 

The die could have been re worked or it could be breaking down.  
 

will be good to see it when you get it in hand. 
 

Always keep an eye out for over rotated C’s there’s loads around, some not listed in marsh.

[Booky586]

It's hard to tell without a good close up photo. Could be something interesting, could be a nick on the coin just before the serif though.

[Allgoldcoins]

Here is the classic 'A' in Victoria 1880S Shield Sovereign:

 

[Spyder]

Coin received, turned out to be nothing special, just a regular uninspiring C. Oh well, was fun waiting for it

[Booky586]

3 hours ago, Spyder said:

Coin received, turned out to be nothing special, just a regular uninspiring C. Oh well, was fun waiting for it

Hard luck and always worth a shot.

Unlike Homer Simpson who said “You tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try.” 😀

[GoldDiggerDave]

5 minutes ago, Booky586 said:

Hard luck and always worth a shot.

Unlike Homer Simpson who said “You tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try.” 😀

I took a punt on a suspected Roman 1…….it wasn’t.