TeaTime

As far as i can tell it costs a minimum of $19 to get a bullion coin graded and slabbed + postage. Adding a 'first release' designation adds an additional $12 - far exceeding the value of the coin. There are probably price breaks for bulk orders. The bit that makes me laugh out loud is the option for a scratch-resistant holder (another $5) - surely that should be standard. I've probably missed other charges...

Fair play to the companies doing it though - they have created a market from nothing. I'm just waiting to see the first graded and slabbed tomato sauce sachet - it's coming, trust me.

The problem with the silver proofs is that sold figures are considered a 'trade secret' by the RM. No-one knows how may of each coin were sold so anyone stating one coin is rarer than another is either guessing, outright lying or works at the RM.

Both the 2018 and 2019 issues had issue limits of 15,000 for the acrylic packaging and were sold for £45.

I like them and keep an eye out for them - often in job lots that work out at around a tenner each. I think the prices will eventually stabilise at circa £20. Ebay sold prices are currently ranging from £9 - £25 with no discernible letter preference.  

I often see bullion coins, that have been slabbed, for sale at no premium over unslabbed coins. Who on earth is paying for these to be graded and why ?

I recently bought some SP USA graded and slabbed quarters at spot - as far as i am aware the grading service cost more than i paid for the coins.

Personally i would never pay for someone to tell me what their opinion of a coins condition is. Not while i have eyes and a modicum of sense.

I can understand (but don't condone) having proof coins graded & encapsulated to preserve the finish and numismatic coins to authenticate them but slabbing bullion coins has no discernible purpose other than to waste money.

Obviously this is my own curmudgeonly opinion and others may disagree. They're wrong 😁

RM will honour distance-selling regs so sending it back shouldn't be a problem. Your post has bought up a few talking points though - what would be the position if a purchaser bought a silver proof coin, had a good old fondle of it  (sans capsule) then sent it back as no longer wanted ? What if someone stuck a silver proof coin in an atmosphere that caused tarnish and then send it back ? 

Maybe an insight into why RM prices are so high...

In my opinion the tarnish you are seeing is the result of oxidation and is guaranteed to appear on all silver items at some point. Normally i wouldn't expect to see it for many years - especially in respect of encapsulated silver. Silver exposed to atmospheric pollution, however, can tarnish pretty much at any point from a few seconds (in relation to highly sulphuric conditions) to decades in ideal conditions.

Anyone who states that silver will make a loss because of the premium and VAT is being, at best, disingenuous. No-one sells silver coins at spot. Look on any forum / dealer website or Ebay to see the actual selling prices of modern silver coins. Prices will fluctuate depending on the intrinsic value of the metal but there will always be a premium involved when buying any manufactured goods. The premium on silver is generally higher than on gold - meaning silver is not as reliant on spot price manipulation movement....

Imagine both gold and silver prices plummeted 50% tomorrow - the higher premium on silver coins would act as a buffer. The gold coins trading at spot would be worth half of what they are today.

Admittedly my attitude to gold/silver is based on a collector, rather than stacker, mentality. I never 'invest' in modern silver/gold coins unless i will actually enjoy owning them. Making an (eventual) profit is the aim but it's not my primary motivation... Knowing my luck i'll keel-over and my coins will get sold by family to a dealer for pennies with the resounding epitaph of 'there's no demand for that sort of stuff these days'......

Truthfully ?

Both gold and silver are volatile and are not a particularly good investment. The majority consensus seems to be to invest in gold right now because of the VAT-free status. I would wager that anyone who purchased investment gold in the last 12 months is watching the spot-price drop right now and not feeling particularly clever. It's a similar picture for silver (with, historically, more volatility - which can equate to bigger losses/profits)

My advice would be to look at buying PMs with a value over and above the intrinsic. If you can combine the value of the precious metal with a numismatic element this can off-set price changes. An example would be if you could purchase something like an Edward VII sovereign at bullion prices or earlier Britannia (.958 silver) coins. I'm not going to go into the rabbit hole of pure numismatics - that's collecting, not stacking. 

This only works if you have an exit strategy that doesn't involve selling your stack to a PM dealer. In that case spot price is everything and you'd just as well invest in coffee stocks.

The ideal scenario is to be a collector with a stacker mentality... The pleasure of owning something can mitigate changes in spot. 

I've always maintained that the UK grading criteria is based on wear above all else. Other 'blemishes' often added as an addendum to the grade.

The US grading system seems to be all encompassing with each 'defect' knocking points off.

As LawrenceChard has stated - in the UK you can find a coin listed as Unc with edge-knock - in the US (Sheldon scale) that edge knock would prohibit it from getting a top grade. Horses for courses.

It wouldn't surprise me if most of my numismatic pieces got a 'details' description if sent to NGC for grading. Quite frankly i think you'd be hard-pressed to find any 300-400 year old circulating coin that hasn't has a rub or two 😁

To see the top dragon head it helps to squint !

I have to admit that i have taken close-up photos of coins (that look minty with the naked eye) to be listed on Ebay - and they look like they've been used as a dart board. Cue a slightly less  'personal' picture ! It's a balancing act of being as honest as possible without putting people off and with competing with the plethora of chancers using Ebay (i've never had a coin returned in 20 years of sporadic selling - yet)

It's a balancing act - are you prepared to potentially forsake a couple of quid on the sale for less chance of a return or bad feedback.. Which reminds me of why i rarely sell on Ebay anymore; waiting for the feedback before i consider the money as mine. And some buyers who never leave it 🙄

As a collector i would love the market to become weaker - less demand means lower prices.

As a speculator i would love the market to become stronger - more profit if i sell.

Humans are a funny lot and i don't believe anyone can predict what will be popular in a few years. As for having the Monarchs portrait on a coin - for most people it's just a handy way to date a piece - the reverse design is usually where the appeal lies. 

For most people the use of cheques stopped around the time Paypal became available.... As a teen with a cheque book i found it quite astounding that i was able to write a cheque out to 'Cash', walk in to my bank, and walk out with money.  It was like winning the Pools (no lottery in those days). Until the County Court summons arrived 😕 

I've just received an email from RM that payment for my set of Britannia's (ordered 4 months ago) has been stopped by my bank. They are asking for a different card even though i purchased coins from them last week with the original card. I'm now considering just ignoring the email and going without the Brits because by the time all this is sorted i'll probably end up with your returned set 🙄

Buying 'gold' at under spot from Ebay would put most people on red alert. Posting it back with no insurance leaves me struggling to sympathise...

I hope it all works out for you OP - if nothing else, it's a lesson learnt.  

I collect enamelled coins and even purchased a kiln and supplies in an effort to tart-up some cheap damaged examples. The work involved is incredibly exacting and laborious. Not helped due to some of the original colours used now being considered dangerous (and unavailable). Needless to say (after giving up) i have a lot of admiration for those who had the patience and skill to do it.

Looking into the double-sided coins it turns out that the trick was to use coloured glass with a higher temperature melting point on one side before enamelling the other. Failure to do so would result in the enamel on the bottom face of the coin running out when placed (upside down) in the kiln. The difference in melting temperature was relatively small so controlling it was paramount. I suspect that the colours used had some bearing on the flow temperature - as certain colours got banned from use then the technique gradually became unachievable.

Probably. 

The phrase 'weak striking' is essentially a term to describe either when a die is getting near the end of it's life and detail starts to be lost, due to a decrease in the pressure used whilst striking, or general die wear. When detail has been lost to only a small defined area it is more probable that either the die has been comprised with foreign material or the damage is post-production. (Or even a hollow planchet).

I suspect a seller would term it a weak strike whilst the buyer would call it damage 😁 C'est la vie.

Simplest answer - dip it in something like Goddards Silver Dip. If it disappears then it's toning - if it doesn't then it's damage.

Admittedly it could be both knowing RM quality control.

I've often wondered why a lot of silver proof coins will tone in such a way. Logically you'd expect it to be more evenly distributed. Dicker could be on to something - perhaps the tone first appears on areas that have micro abrasions or defects introduced as part of the minting process..  

In contrast to the last opinion i think that it is natural toning. I have a few RM silver proof coins that exhibit the same toning - all of them have never been handled.

I'm not a fan of coloured coins. And these examples are part of the reason why - they look bloody awful. 

Seriously - i could have done a better job of colouring between the lines after 8 pints and a port & brandy to finish off the night.

Someone needs to point out that they really need to perfect minting plain silver proofs before attempting another process to go wrong.   

It looks like the area in question has been flattened either during or post production. Imagine dropping something like a ball-bearing on to the coin and you would expect to see damage very similar to what is showing. Alternatively a bit of swarf on the die could be the cause.

I can't see a weak strike producing such a localised defect and would expect it to show over more of the coin.. 

Blimey - in an effort to gain knowledge i Googled 'selling counterfeit currency' and was surprised that there are websites selling counterfeit banknotes including blurbs such as .... 'amazing quality and 100% authenticity is guaranteed'..... which seems a bit odd. Authentic counterfeit currency 🤔.

I think the simplest answer to the question 'why do people buy silver plated coins' is that the buyer has every intention of passing on the 'coin' as genuine at some point. I don't believe there are that many people around who are buying a counterfeit because they are too stupid to realise it..

Don't worry OP - you're not alone in this. The RM are ruddy clueless to issue the three graces bars in packaging following the Una bars being released in 'cling film'. I fully expect the next release to be housed in something completely different again.

(unless, of course, they have a cunning plan to release matching empty packaging at some point in the future - for a small fee) ?

Personally i have re-housed my Una bars in hard capsules and am girding my loins to do the same with the three graces. Any product in the original packaging will sell quicker than loose product - whether the packaging will carry a premium is yet to be determined but, historically, it does make a difference in re-sale prices.

I bought a bar for my own pleasure which i will re-house. Anyone who has bought bars to eventually re-sell would be advised to leave them as is.

Last night i pulled out my RM proof sets (from 2000-2015) and had a really good look at the coins. These sets are encapsulated in the original packaging and the coins are as-issued. I found defects in every set ranging from breaks in the frosting to micro scratches and even small divots in the field.

This is not a new phenomenon - RM proof coins have always had defects. QC has never been much of a priority and older collectors are aware of this.

If you read the waffle about proof coins on the RM's website (which includes '...After striking, each coin is inspected for imperfections...' ) it doesn't actually say that imperfect coins are discarded - just that they are inspected 😁.

If the breaks in the frosting stop you enjoying the coin then you need to send it back. Just remember that the term 'proof' is pretty meaningless when it comes to perceived quality - it literally is a description of how the coin has been made.   

....I don’t believe in selling it for what I bought it for because then it’s not an investment...

That's because they aren't an investment - at best they are a speculation.

Historically RM silver proof coins are overpriced and drop in value from the moment they are purchased. Anyone who has spent five minutes looking on Ebay (other auction sites are available) can see that.

I would hazard that 80% of proof product from the RM eventually get re-sold at a loss. The few exceptions are low mintage popular coins that sell-out quickly - and even then, prices tend to stabilise after the initial frenzy.

All you can do is hope that the series takes off around issue 6 or 7 creating a demand. Selling at exactly the right time is the key.

Issue limits + number of collectors will dictate the potential for profit. The 2022 proof sovereign was a very generous issue probably greatly surpassing the number of genuine collectors.

Speculators will dictate if this turns into a money maker or not. All it takes is for public perception to be manipulated into believing 7.3g of gold formed into a disc in 2022 is the next best thing... 

Very long term - who knows ? Maybe when coinage has become obsolete then another generation of collectors will be crying out for shiny metal discs. Alternatively they may view all coins a bit like we now view shells 😁

Pop them in a bag with a boiled egg..... You'll soon know if a coin has silver in it !

If the tarnish then comes off with a dunk in silver dip you can be confident it's not a cupro-nickel variant.