NGC grading are a joke

[Spyder]

Look at this coin in the list below and then look at my coin. 

How can they both be graded the same

https://www.ngccoin.uk/certlookup/6674564-003/69/

Spyder

[Leonmarsh]

It's dust inside the capsule at NGC on the pic 

You pay for the privilege of grading dust 

[James32]

What are we looking at? 

[Rafal]

i thought slabs were tightly closed with some neutral gas in it .

I would probably crack it open and send it again to NGC.

I was talking to a person with years(40+) of experience at the London market about NGC 

he sent it one coin to them 3 times and got 3 different grades, start with AU58 and last one MS63

I was lost for words.

[Spyder]

39 minutes ago, James32 said:

What are we looking at? 

Look at the coin above, then click on the link and you will see another coin at NGC graded the same which is in terrible condition

When you go to NGC click on the photo and it should zoom and you will see what I pointing out

Edited February 7 by Spyder

[James32]

I think it might be dust adding to the NGC photos. 

That being said I've held both a 69 an 70 in hand and couldn't spot the difference. 

[SiCole]

Its a massive trek down the rabbits hole with NGC.

Personal advice - send it to @NGMD to send to Dave - guaranteed 70!!!

[Spyder]

6 minutes ago, SiCole said:

Its a massive trek down the rabbits hole with NGC.

Personal advice - send it to @NGMD to send to Dave - guaranteed 70!!!

Why would I send it to two different people.  It was graded via Dave

The 69 grade is not the problem, it is the other coin that should be graded much lower like 67-68

Edited February 7 by Spyder

[SiCole]

3 minutes ago, Spyder said:

Why would I send it to two different people.  It was graded via Dave

Humour - he has the 70 touch.

You pay your money and take your chance. I have better looking 69 coins than i have 70 of the same coin.

 

[Foster88]

I’ve thought this for a while, grading, whilst helpful and shows authenticity, is just someone’s opinion.

Look at the coin in the capsule. Make your own mind up.

Buy the coin, not the grade.

Some 69’s are better than 70’s.

Edited February 8 by Foster88

[Spyder]

5 minutes ago, Foster88 said:

I’ve thought this for a while, grading, whilst helpful and shows authenticity, is just someone’s opinion.

Look at the coin in the capsule. Make your own mind up.

Buy the coin, not the grade.

Some 69’s are better and 70’s.

Totally agree and for this reason, I am always on the look out for cheap 69 graded sovereigns

[GoldDiggerDave]

@Spyder I can not see the comparison you are trying to make sorry ones a 1995 the others is 1981 

No one  ever going to point blank agree on how a coin grades no matter what scale or which grading company used.  if you think about it even your opinion is as subjective as a coins grade.  There is a trend from some people to expect 70's all the time and when a coin falls short of that they are disappointed and its someone else's fault......AKA I want all the reward and someone else can take all the risk (blame)...not saying this is you just something I experience all the time. 

The difference between a PF69/PF70 can be indistinguishable, and this is just my opinion some populations seam or feel like they are much hard to attain a 70 than other years.

Its also very easy for a arm chair collector to agree or dis agree once someone has graded a coin either raw or slabbed.  If I put 100 proof sovereigns in front of you could you tell me you would get every single grade correct?     

As an experiment grade 40-50 of your raw coins record it and then come back a few weeks  later and grade them again would you grade everyone exactly the same?  its a good exercise if anything.  

I had a very nice 1/2 sovereign  in hand and I showed it to some "coin experts"  and I got grades of XF45 to MS61 off them this is within 7 tiers on the Sheldon scale   one or two of these "experts" were miles off,,,,,,It came back AU58.......Should experts grading a coin be far closer to AU58 the they were?   If you get 4 professional marksmen and asked them to shoot targets you would expect them to all within the same cluster or grouping?  Just goes to show how people can vastly grade a coin differently. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[GoldDiggerDave]

think you are talking about the residue on the 1981...........Defo not one of mine 😀 To de fair its impossible to get every spec off a coin.......I genuinely try the best with the coins I grade.  

1995 is a SOB of a population to beat  and if was a 70 you would have a easily £1,500 coin

 

[TeaTime]

1 hour ago, GoldDiggerDave said:

The difference between a PF69/PF70 can be indistinguishable

Imagine looking at a group of twenty of the same coins that have come directly from the mint. After grading the first 5 or 6 as PF70 it would be a very focused person who wouldn't think 'maybe i'll grade the next one at 69 just for a bit of variety' !

I genuinely believe that a lot of the 69 grades are down to the whims of the grader rather than quality of the coin... 

[GoldDiggerDave]

15 minutes ago, TeaTime said:

Imagine looking at a group of twenty of the same coins that have come directly from the mint. After grading the first 5 or 6 as PF70 it would be a very focused person who wouldn't think 'maybe i'll grade the next one at 69 just for a bit of variety' !

I genuinely believe that a lot of the 69 grades are down to the whims of the grader rather than quality of the coin... 

possibly, however other than someone who works at the mint there’s very few people can say they QC check more memorial proof sovereigns than me, I have checked over 1800 of them in total, out of this most were PF70/69 imo a few were as low as  PF65. 

You would be surprised there is a wider range of brand new proof coins from the mint than you would imagine. 
 

Some visually look different in the finish, greasy to a point they are a different colour, (it’s hard to see in one coin but over a wider sample set there is a clear difference). 
 

Pick up/ debris on the surface is very common, this doesn’t normally detract from the coin and rarely affects grading. 
 

Strike……yes there is a noticeable difference in the strike of a new proof coin 1/4oz golds obverse in particular show this. 
 

It’s such an expensive topic no one will agree and not everyone will grade a coin exactly the same 100% of the time……just a fact. 
 

and don’t forget there’s a good few people out there can’t resist handling their coins prior to submitting……had to tell a fellow YT guy every time he was showing a proof his left thumb was pressing on the coins at 20 to the hour on the face of his coins……🤣. When I’m conserving coins I know if someone is left or right handed due to which side of the coin the thumb print is on. 
 

 

[Spyder]

3 hours ago, GoldDiggerDave said:

think you are talking about the residue on the 1981...........Defo not one of mine 😀 To de fair its impossible to get every spec off a coin.......I genuinely try the best with the coins I grade.  

1995 is a SOB of a population to beat  and if was a 70 you would have a easily £1,500 coin

 

@GoldDiggerDave, I am happy with the grade my coin got, all I am saying is some 69 are better than others and that 1981 just does not look like it should have been a 69 regardless if it is an older coin.  

That photos was taken by NGC  as it was graded by them. How can that residue warrant a 69 grade. I can understand if the coin was graded years earlier and the residue happened after, but that is not the case as the photo is like that on their site.

[GoldDiggerDave]

14 minutes ago, Spyder said:

@GoldDiggerDave, I am happy with the grade my coin got, all I am saying is some 69 are better than others and that 1981 just does not look like it should have been a 69 regardless if it is an older coin.  

That photos was taken by NGC  as it was graded by them. How can that residue warrant a 69 grade. I can understand if the coin was graded years earlier and the residue happened after, but that is not the case as the photo is like that on their site.

I understand I get 69’s back myself and I want to scream.   It’s far from a perfect world.  
 

Like I said above it’s just a feeling some populations do seam harder to achieve the top results. 

[refero]

PF 69 or PF70 of modern coins is just a huge commercial trick to foul poor collectors. As already written there is no guarantee the same coin would get the same grading if submitted multiple times.

That should be just more than enough to stop this insane run to submit to get the magic number. Moreover, if (assuming that) it was scientifically possible to separate 69s from 70s (of course not with naked eye or home technology) what would prevent a slabbing company to receive your crispy potential 70, keep it and resend you another coin, a “decent” 69? You would never notice. Modern coins look identical, especially proofs.

It is also very very difficult to submit coins as a private and get the maximum grade. Why? Maybe because there are also hidden or maybe not even hidden agreement amongst professionals (like Mints or dealers and who slabs) to keep the first monopoly of 70s slabbed coins? (like the famous “first releases” that a normal person cant simply obtain directly from the producer?)

With pre (talking about sovereigns) 1902 things are different as each coin can be quite easily recognized.

I myself bought the complete gothic sovereign series throughout years, 13 coins from 1985 to 1997 and i always looked for 69s. They look amazing and i m quite sure they could be 70s, if maybe submitted for slab through the right channel….

Isnt this sad if you consider the amount of money involved in this market? A 69 goes for 600 gbp, a 70 for 1 grand..or even more..

Edited February 8 by refero

[GoldDiggerDave]

5 minutes ago, refero said:

Isnt this sad if you consider the amount of money involved in this market? A 69 goes for 600 gbp, a 70 for 1 grand..or even more

Is this not the same as ms65 selling for less than a ms66? 
 

I get it no one is ever going to agree on grading regardless if it’s slabbed or loose.  
 

the guy selling is going to potentially over grade and the guy buying will want to under grade a loose coin who’s right?  
 

15 minutes ago, refero said:

It is also very very difficult to submit coins as a private and get the maximum grade. Why? Maybe because there are also hidden or maybe not even hidden agreement amongst professionals (like Mints or dealers and who slabs) to keep the first monopoly of 70s slabbed coins? (like the famous “first releases” that a normal person cant simply obtain directly from the producer?)

This is not the case I have submitted 100’s of coins as a private individual and got back way more 70’s than lower grades…..I can back this up with NGC reports and invoices.  Also the population reports can be a helpful indicator of how coins are grading, many new gold proof coins grade far higher then their silver counterparts in some cases it’s staggering where 97-98% of golds are achieving the top grades where silver is dramatically less 32-33% in some like for like populations so the results depend on the coins you submit.
 

There’s no grand conspiracy or agreements from what I see, mints will put in batches of coins the sell them PF70UC and not doubt they submit more than they need to attain the numbers they need. 

Like I say not everyone will agree and this conversation will go round in circles for ever.

 

 

 

 

[refero]

3 minutes ago, GoldDiggerDave said:

This is not the case I have submitted 100’s of coins as a private individual

A private doesnt send 100's of coins imho. That looks like commercial activity

[refero]

Grading a coin will always be a human activity with a certain degree of subjectivity. There is nothing wrong in this.

Is the commercial +++p that is made out of that that is to blame. 

Edited February 8 by refero

[GoldDiggerDave]

18 minutes ago, refero said:

A private doesnt send 100's of coins imho. That looks like commercial activity

My personal collection of coin is factors bigger than my business stock as I've built it up over decades...  And to suggest 100's is commercial over 8-9 years is very odd indeed.     Some of us do have lots of coins as we enjoy the hobby does that satisfy your comment about commercial activity?  

If you are struggling to attain the higher grades I'm happy to help, I've developed a good eye over the years and I do have an added skill it that I know how to professionally conserve coins which is proving to be a bonus.

If grading coins is not for you then I get it, I'm certainly not trying to convince you as the market is so vast theres enough to keep everyone happy.....or so you would think.  

 

 

 

 

[refero]

just sharing thoughts and ideas on the forum like everbody else dude. No mean to offend or investigating your activity/hobby whatever.

You wrote about hundreds of coins submitted to slab, lucky you! but that is not the general average.

I m not against slabbed coins (i have a lot of them in slab, also because it is indeed a clear help in avoiding cleaned coins, counterfaits, damaged coins etc etc etc that are sometimes very difficult to spot on line with horrible pictures), i just have a good laugh at this madness about getting the famous PF70 as if this was a matter of life/death. People are wasting a lot of hardly-earned money to look for this fake Grail and i feel normal to share my doubts on the fairness of this business

Edited February 8 by refero

[GoldDiggerDave]

This are a few of my recent submission to give yo a reasonable cross-section of how coins are grading.  I've yet to see a 1995 £2 and £1 to get PF70UC........And I'd love to see a PF70UC 1979 proof sovereign !