2023 Proof Gold Sovereign Charles III Possible Design

[LawrenceChard]

2023 Proof Gold Sovereign Charles III Possible Design

Here is our second attempt at imagining what next year's gold proof sovereign could look like, based on the King's Privy Council Proclamation:

Naturally, we don't expect to have got it absolutely correct, as there are numerous possible interpretations.

😎

[westminstrel]

24 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

2023 Proof Gold Sovereign Charles III Possible Design

Here is our second attempt at imagining what next year's gold proof sovereign could look like, based on the King's Privy Council Proclamation:

Naturally, we don't expect to have got it absolutely correct, as there are numerous possible interpretations.

😎

From a heraldic standpoint, I believe St. Edward’s Crown would be replaced by the Tudor Crown. The rest is indeed left to design interpretation. 

[jultorsk]

3 hours ago, westminstrel said:

From a heraldic standpoint, I believe St. Edward’s Crown would be replaced by the Tudor Crown. The rest is indeed left to design interpretation. 

On top of the Coat of Arms, on the rampant lion, or on both? 🤔😁

[westminstrel]

2 hours ago, jultorsk said:

On top of the Coat of Arms, on the rampant lion, or on both? 🤔😁

Good question. Most likely both, plus the lion on the crest. 

[refero]

too many crowns on the obverse. None where it should be (on the king's head). What makes a king a "king"?

[LawrenceChard]

3 hours ago, refero said:

too many crowns on the obverse. None where it should be (on the king's head). What makes a king a "king"?

Try this:

😎

[LawrenceChard]

4 hours ago, refero said:

too many crowns on the obverse. None where it should be (on the king's head). What makes a king a "king"?

To give a more serious answer:

It is widely believed that King Charles prefers to simplify things, and to have less pageantry. 

The Royal Mint have already published images of "His Majesty The King’s Official Coinage Portrait". "The sculptor turned his hand to coin design and recently created the first definitive coinage portrait of King Charles III, who personally approved the portrait."

So, it was undoubtedly Charles' preference that his coin portrait would be with a bare head, (Don't ask about the reverse!)

"What makes a king a "king"?"

Heredity, combined with some possible political chicanery.

"Formal ceremonies
Charles was officially proclaimed King on the Saturday following the Queen's death. This event took place at St James's Palace in London, in front of a ceremonial body known as the Accession Council.

This was made up of members of the Privy Council - a group of senior MPs, past and present, and peers - as well as some senior civil servants, Commonwealth high commissioners, and the Lord Mayor of London.

The Accession Council has two parts and King Charles was only present for the second."

Source: BBC.

From the time of the abdication of Edward VIII, it appears that the Privy Council and the Government can influence whether a regal candidate accedes to the throne.

"In 1936, a constitutional crisis in the British Empire arose when King-Emperor Edward VIII proposed to marry Wallis Simpson, an American socialite who was divorced from her first husband and was pursuing the divorce of her second."

Source: Wikipedia

😎

[LawrenceChard]

4 hours ago, refero said:

too many crowns on the obverse. None where it should be (on the king's head). What makes a king a "king"?

A third response:

There are no crowns on the obverse, which is the main or "head" side.

The 3 crowns all appear on the reverse or "tail" side.

It always amuses me when people comment about the "front" side of a coin, because logically this would entail calling the reverse its "back side".

I know back side translates to lato posteriore in Italian, and backside translates to "didietro", but am not sure whether that has the same alternative meanings in Italian as it does in English.

😎

 

[refero]

indeed, my mistake,

too many crowns on the reverse, where none on the obverse.

back to your answer, i perfectly understand that King Charles III "prefers to semplify things, and to have less pageantry". It is difficult for me to explain, as a foreigner to your eyes, but i find that quite hypocritical.

He is there not because of personal skills, or because of his acute brain. He was born with that incredible privilege, (it's not on me to say if the monarchy it is useful or not nowadays), he is more than a Head of State and his title will last until his last day of life. He got titles, castles, jewels, etc etc etc etc and he doesnt want to be represented with a crown on his head because he feels that that could be seen as a-too-direct link to the past where his family had everything when the vast majority of people had nothing? C'mon, on the reverse is shown the motto "Dieu et mon droit"...

as i said, he's ought to wear a crown, to be seen as a king. 

what is the point in living as a king and just pretending to be seen as a normal person, just because his effige doesnt show the supreme symbol of a monarchy---?

 

 

[Seasider]

11 minutes ago, refero said:

as i said, he's ought to wear a crown, to be seen as a king.

That is quite interesting.  On English coins Kings as far back as Charles II have appeared with no Crown.  Charles I appeared on coins with a Crown on his head but of course that got cut off after the English Civil War so maybe Kings think it is unlucky to have a crowned head on their English coins?

For some reason that does not extend to other coins - eg George V has a crown on when he appears on Indian rupees.

[LawrenceChard]

59 minutes ago, refero said:

indeed, my mistake,

too many crowns on the reverse, where none on the obverse.

back to your answer, i perfectly understand that King Charles III "prefers to semplify things, and to have less pageantry". It is difficult for me to explain, as a foreigner to your eyes, but i find that quite hypocritical.

He is there not because of personal skills, or because of his acute brain. He was born with that incredible privilege, (it's not on me to say if the monarchy it is useful or not nowadays), he is more than a Head of State and his title will last until his last day of life. He got titles, castles, jewels, etc etc etc etc and he doesnt want to be represented with a crown on his head because he feels that that could be seen as a-too-direct link to the past where his family had everything when the vast majority of people had nothing? C'mon, on the reverse is shown the motto "Dieu et mon droit"...

as i said, he's ought to wear a crown, to be seen as a king. 

what is the point in living as a king and just pretending to be seen as a normal person, just because his effige doesnt show the supreme symbol of a monarchy---?

Obverse / reverse is an easy mistake to make.

What is need here is to meet up in il Gambero Rosso, and pursue the great Italian pastime of discussing politics over an espresso, and perhaps s tiramisu.

I am sure the "image" or "brand image" is behind much of this.

In any monarchy, there will always be republicans or anti-monarchists. I am sure Charles, and many of his advisors, are aware of this.

The continued existence of the British monarchy is bound to be influenced by public opinion, and this will be part of the awareness.

I believe this is all very sensible.

I think Elizabeth II has done a wonderful job during her monarch, and helped to change it from a remote, privileged existence, to a more connected position, held by a very dedicated and hard-working human being. Sure, there have been PR mistakes, and family disappointments, but our Royal Family is human.

I certainly would not want Charles' responsibilities even in exchange for the perks and privileges.

We are about the same age, and I would definitely not want to start such a demanding new job at his age. It also comes with the risk of being assassinated, and that's probably a higher risk for him than anything nearly as drastic happening to me in Blackpool. Encountering an avalanche while skiing is probably my biggest risk, and that can be mitigated with reasonable care.

In much earlier times, a sword was probably a greater symbol of a kings power than a crown, and the small French motto ""Dieu et mon droit"" would probably not be notice or understood by most of the extreme members of the proletariat.

Also in previous times, a powerful king might have a large number of mistresses...

... Perhaps I could have been tempted in the past!

When I next visit Tuscany, we should meet up. I am happy to join in some of the other traditional discussion topics including food, although I am not too knowledgeable about football.

😎

[LawrenceChard]

15 hours ago, westminstrel said:

From a heraldic standpoint, I believe St. Edward’s Crown would be replaced by the Tudor Crown. The rest is indeed left to design interpretation. 

12 hours ago, jultorsk said:

On top of the Coat of Arms, on the rampant lion, or on both? 🤔😁

10 hours ago, westminstrel said:

Good question. Most likely both, plus the lion on the crest. 

This is a very quick attempt at our 3rd version:

That's 2 out of 3, although the next step must be the colour!

😎

[MonkeysUncle]

The Charlie side looks a little plain to me and the words a bit SHOUTY.

Maybe smaller lettering and a decorative rim/ ring (I could be mixing front side and backside up again!🙃)

 

[Solachesis]

1/10, it's too gold. I like my sovereigns coloured like a well fried pancake.

But in all seriousness, your rendition is very nice, would buy

 

[westminstrel]

1 hour ago, LawrenceChard said:

This is a very quick attempt at our 3rd version:

That's 2 out of 3, although the next step must be the colour!

😎

Heheheh!

Tbh I’ve always preferred the Tudor Crown to St. Edward’s Crown - it feels less flamboyant and more stately - so even this mock-up gives a good idea of what the updated Coat of Arms will look like. 😀

[kimchi]

14 minutes ago, westminstrel said:

Heheheh!

Tbh I’ve always preferred the Tudor Crown to St. Edward’s Crown - it feels less flamboyant and more stately - so even this mock-up gives a good idea of what the updated Coat of Arms will look like. 😀

I thought I'd read that Charles will be coronated with the 'Edward (the first) crown' which was made for Charles II upon the Restoration in 1661.

If so, am I confusing heraldry with ritual?

[LawrenceChard]

44 minutes ago, MonkeysUncle said:

The Charlie side looks a little plain to me and the words a bit SHOUTY.

Maybe smaller lettering and a decorative rim/ ring (I could be mixing front side and backside up again!🙃)

 

According to the Royal Mint:

Originally training as a calligrapher, Martin Jennings also has experience carving inscriptions into stone. In order to complement and convey the gravitas of this new portrait, he explains that the font of the lettering within the design was of the upmost importance to him.

“What I wanted was a classical, almost magisterial, form of lettering to emphasise the strength in the portrait.”

---

"Maybe smaller lettering and a decorative rim/ ring (I could be mixing front side and backside up again!🙃)"

Mentioning a "decorative rim/ ring" is in the same sentence as "mixing ... and backside up again!

Definitely sounds rather un-regal!

😎

 

[LawrenceChard]

7 minutes ago, kimchi said:

I thought I'd read that Charles will be coronated with the 'Edward (the first) crown' which was made for Charles II upon the Restoration in 1661.

If so, am I confusing heraldry with ritual?

 

"It is an Anglican religious service, carried out by the Archbishop of Canterbury. At the climax of the ceremony, he will place St Edward's Crown on Charles's head - a solid gold crown, dating from 1661." (BBC).

Although being crowned with St Edward's Crown is expected to be part of the symbolism at the Coronatiom, I'm sure he doesn't have to go around wearing it for the rest of his life.

The official portrait on UK coins can and will be different.

😎

 

 

[SidS]

10 hours ago, refero said:

too many crowns on the obverse. None where it should be (on the king's head). What makes a king a "king"?

There are no crowns on the obverse.

[SidS]

If he wants the reverse simplifying and kept basic then the 1988 £1 coin reverse would do it. Or even that awful 2008-2015 standard £1 reverse, they don't come much simpler than that.

[LawrenceChard]

2 minutes ago, SidS said:

There are no crowns on the obverse.

That's what I said here:

There are no crowns on the obverse, which is the main or "head" side.

The 3 crowns all appear on the reverse or "tail" side.

It always amuses me when people comment about the "front" side of a coin, because logically this would entail calling the reverse its "back side".

... once I had noticed!

😎

[SidS]

3 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

That's what I said here:

There are no crowns on the obverse, which is the main or "head" side.

The 3 crowns all appear on the reverse or "tail" side.

It always amuses me when people comment about the "front" side of a coin, because logically this would entail calling the reverse its "back side".

... once I had noticed!

😎

Sorry, I only spotted that after I'd posted. I read the thread from the beginning only a few moments ago though, I simply reply and react to each post as I work my way down. 

[kimchi]

I am not sure why you responded 'laugh' at my previous comment @LawrenceChard

1 minute ago, LawrenceChard said:

 

"It is an Anglican religious service, carried out by the Archbishop of Canterbury. At the climax of the ceremony, he will place St Edward's Crown on Charles's head - a solid gold crown, dating from 1661." (BBC).

Although being crowned with St Edward's Crown is expected to be part of the symbolism at the Coronatiom, I'm sure he doesn't have to go around wearing it for the rest of his life.

The official portrait on UK coins can and will be different.

😎

Thanks Lawrence, that's what I thought

I don't think I implied that he'd have to continue wearing it though, or it would be on his portrait on coinage (?). I have said for years on here that he would not be 'pictured' crowned. I meant it only as a genuine question about the ritual and ceremony compared to the coin design.

On a lighter note, I'm also now very confused what a 'Coronatiom' is. I did google it to try to find out but only got a page full of some very rude pictures, which I am sure wasn't what you meant

[GoldDiggerDave]

[LawrenceChard]

33 minutes ago, SidS said:

Sorry, I only spotted that after I'd posted. I read the thread from the beginning only a few moments ago though, I simply reply and react to each post as I work my way down. 

Yes, I guessed that.

😎