What makes this worth £5k plus 1917 Sovereign?

[Petra]

1 minute ago, LawrenceChard said:

Which means that they weren't doing much of a good job for the seller.

If genuine, it might be worth £10K depending on condition, which is also difficult to tell from the "snaps".

Didn't know, didn't care!

 

The trouble with buying online is that they put estimates on items that may be unrealistic but the system will not let you leave a lower bid, you have to wait until it is actually being auctioned.

[LawrenceChard]

1 minute ago, Dakaras said:

I did also think that, 2 minutes to look a coin up in Spink, would have then warranted investigation

Probably too tight too buy one, or even £10 for a CYB, but could have looked online.

My guess is they don't even know it is London Mint.

[sovereignsteve]

I would have thought their low estimate was a sure indication they had no idea of it's rarity, not it's authenticity.

It would be interesting to see the result if their T&C were ever tested in law. I can't believe they can simply wave away their responsibilty to describe their goods correctly and not to bear any responsibilty for selling conterfeit coins of the realm!

[CollectForFun]

4 hours ago, Dakaras said:

Well only had the one win but a 1/10 for well under spot I'll take 😁

By the way, which one was that? Hopefully not the Angel..?

[Petra]

8 minutes ago, sovereignsteve said:

I would have thought their low estimate was a sure indication they had no idea of it's rarity, not it's authenticity.

It would be interesting to see the result if their T&C were ever tested in law. I can't believe they can simply wave away their responsibilty to describe their goods correctly and not to bear any responsibilty for selling conterfeit coins of the realm!

Every auction house have to have the same rules posted up somewhere in their rooms. Basically you buy what you see, if you don’t check it properly before you buy then you have no comebacks 

[sovereignsteve]

5 minutes ago, Petra said:

Every auction house have to have the same rules posted up somewhere in their rooms. Basically you buy what you see, if you don’t check it properly before you buy then you have no comebacks 

How do you do that?

If they advertise it as "this looks like a sovereign of year xxxx but it could be a lump of random gold, or not even gold", then I can see the validity of their T&C.

I still say if they advertise as "a 1917 London gold sovereign", then it will have to be genuine, or they are breaking the law.

Edited April 11, 2022 by sovereignsteve

[CollectForFun]

11 minutes ago, sovereignsteve said:

I still say if they advertise as "a 1917 London gold sovereign", then it will have to be genuine, or they are breaking the law.

Well, their T&C continue as follows:

Quote

All statements in the catalogues as to any such matters are statements of opinion and are not to be taken as or as implying statements or representations of fact. Purchasers are deemed to have satisfied themselves by inspection or otherwise as to all such matters and as to the physical description of any Lot. Neither the Vendor nor the Auctioneers make or give, nor any person in the employment of the Auctioneers any authority to make or give any representation warranty and in any event neither the Vendor nor the Auctioneers are responsible for any representation or warranty for any statement in the catalogue.

 

[Petra]

35 minutes ago, sovereignsteve said:

How do you do that?

If they advertise it as "this looks like a sovereign of year xxxx but it could be a lump of random gold, or not even gold", then I can see the validity of their T&C.

I still say if they advertise as "a 1917 London gold sovereign", then it will have to be genuine, or they are breaking the law.

Up to you to check

[Petra]

Thing is, I am sure I am not the only forum member to have bought from this auction house, what I received was great and they had a quick turn around sending stuff out.

[Seasider]

2 hours ago, CollectForFun said:

By the way, which one was that? Hopefully not the Angel..?

What was wrong with the Angel?  Oh I just noticed they call it 1/10 when it is 1/20.

[27carrots]

46 minutes ago, Seasider said:

What was wrong with the Angel?  Oh I just noticed they call it 1/10 when it is 1/20.

Yeah, must have been.

Any chance he can get his money back?

Quote

Thirteen commemorative cold coins in capsules including St George and the Dragon, Concorde and RMS Queen Elizabeth II, total 41g including capsules

I think this was for 13 1/25 ozt coins. Great descriptions.

Edited April 11, 2022 by 27carrots

[Foster88]

What I have noticed from my local auction house is that they’re not experienced with selling coins at all.

I’ve been buying from them, other things, not coins for many years. But when they sell coins, usually sovereigns they’re not great.

I had to tell them only last year that they were selling a 1918 sovereign described as an Edward VII sovereign. They were embarrassed when I said “Edward VII died in 1910”. I wasn’t rude with them, I just wanted to let them know and they corrected the listing within a few hours. This was also days before the sale but, I feel, it’s not difficult to research. I think the problem or more difficulty is with auction houses is that they work on volume of lots.

The 1917 sovereign may be genuine and I think most sovereigns sold through ‘general’ auction houses, they have no idea about the value, the possible rarity etc. Most likely they’re coins that have been left to the sellers and it’s as simple as, they’re looking to sell. But this is where the auction house should do their research.

I’m sure there are many things that all of us know nothing about that if, left to us we’d sell.

In a way I more so can’t understand what the buyer was thinking. An extremely rare sovereign comes up for auction but it doesn’t reach the value of its rarity when bidding or getting close to recent sold prices (lack of research).

That would set alarm bells ringing for most.

 

 

[Dakaras]

6 hours ago, Seasider said:

What was wrong with the Angel?  Oh I just noticed they call it 1/10 when it is 1/20.

I've emailed them , when sticking in bids from a phone you depend on a description, I wasn't bidding on 1/20 but 1/10 so won't be paying See how that goes down.

[flyingveepixie]

9 hours ago, Petra said:

Auction house estimates rarely mean anything. They are always putting very low estimates on items that go for loads. They all do it, has no relevance as to what they really think the item is and may make.

As previously discussed a few days ago.   This sounds like a bad business model to me and wouldn't inspire me as a seller or a buyer to ever enter into any kind of agreement with them, especially with the ridiculous premiums most of them charge to each party involved in most sales. 

[Roy]

18 minutes ago, Dakaras said:

I've emailed them , when sticking in bids from a phone you depend on a description, I wasn't bidding on 1/20 but 1/10 so won't be paying See how that goes down.

I'm about to go to bed, but:

There's something in my mind...the 1/20 Angel was a piedfort so was actually 1/10!

@ilovesilverireallydo knows all about this.

Hang on before you shout too loudly 😎 👍

[Dakaras]

10 minutes ago, Roy said:

I'm about to go to bed, but:

There's something in my mind...the 1/20 Angel was a piedfort so was actually 1/10!

@ilovesilverireallydo knows all about this.

Hang on before you shout too loudly 😎 👍

Thanks Roy @ilovesilverireallydois that correct? 

[ilovesilverireallydo]

1 hour ago, Dakaras said:

Thanks Roy @ilovesilverireallydois that correct? 

I am not sure I recall a 1/20 piedfort - that doesnt mean it didnt exist, as all the other denominations certainly existed as a piedfort. I have a 1/10 that is actually double size and its really a 1/5 despite being stamped as 1/10. Isle of man dont release mintage numbers or details regularly which means its hard to tell which years had piedfort proofs. A side profile photo would certainly help. 

[Dakaras]

1 minute ago, ilovesilverireallydo said:

I am not sure I recall a 1/20 piedfort - that doesnt mean it didnt exist, as all the other denominations certainly existed as a piedfort. I have a 1/10 that is actually double size and its really a 1/5 despite being stamped as 1/10. Isle of man dont release mintage numbers or details regularly which means its hard to tell which years had piedfort proofs. A side profile photo would certainly help. 

Thank you, I've looked everywhere can't find one. 

[ilovesilverireallydo]

3 minutes ago, Dakaras said:

Thank you, I've looked everywhere can't find one. 

I checked my notes - 2008 had a full range of piedforts. It may very well be that you have a 1/10 disguised as a 1/20

[Dakaras]

5 minutes ago, ilovesilverireallydo said:

I checked my notes - 2008 had a full range of piedforts. It may very well be that you have a 1/10 disguised as a 1/20

Thanks for that @ilovesilverireallydo cost to me is £140 Inc delivery so going to get it sent, I then have a bargain or a very expensive 20th 🤣

[CollectForFun]

1 hour ago, ilovesilverireallydo said:

I am not sure I recall a 1/20 piedfort - that doesnt mean it didnt exist, as all the other denominations certainly existed as a piedfort. I have a 1/10 that is actually double size and its really a 1/5 despite being stamped as 1/10. Isle of man dont release mintage numbers or details regularly which means its hard to tell which years had piedfort proofs. A side profile photo would certainly help. 

A coin stamped as 1/10oz but being actually 1/5oz? Now, that's something I would be really curious to see...

Edit: oh, here it is, unbelievable that something like this could have happened...

https://www.bullionbypost.co.uk/gold-coins/1-ounce-isle-man-angel/piedfort-110th-15th-ounce-2008-angel-gold-coin/

Regarding the coin from the auction, this is its edge and that does not look like a piedfort one...

Anyhow, BBP's current price for this coin would be £135.50 so not that much less than the winning bid incl. delivery.

Edited April 12, 2022 by CollectForFun

[Dakaras]

11 minutes ago, CollectForFun said:

A coin stamped as 1/10oz but being actually 1/5oz? Now, that's something I would be really curious to see...

Regarding the coin from the auction, this is its edge and that does not look like a piedfort one...

Anyhow, BBP's current price for this coin would be £135.50 so not that much less than the winning bid incl. delivery.

Thanks, still in two minds as to kick up or take the potential hit. 

[ilovesilverireallydo]

1 hour ago, CollectForFun said:

A coin stamped as 1/10oz but being actually 1/5oz? Now, that's something I would be really curious to see...

Edit: oh, here it is, unbelievable that something like this could have happened...

https://www.bullionbypost.co.uk/gold-coins/1-ounce-isle-man-angel/piedfort-110th-15th-ounce-2008-angel-gold-coin/

Regarding the coin from the auction, this is its edge and that does not look like a piedfort one...

Anyhow, BBP's current price for this coin would be £135.50 so not that much less than the winning bid incl. delivery.

 

[27carrots]

It has the exact same image as the 1/20 on BPP and they wouldn't make that sort of mistake.

[sovereignsteve]

15 hours ago, CollectForFun said:

Well, their T&C continue as follows:

 

 

15 hours ago, Petra said:

Up to you to check

As I understand the law, you can put whatever you like in your T&C, it doesn't make it lawful and enforceable. There are certain checks and tests for fairness that must be adhered to and certain aspects can be clearly contrary to a specific law of the land. Consumer law is quite prescriptive in many areas.

Also, by offering their auctions to online bidding, it may be they will come under certain distance selling regulations.

All of this will be uncertain until it is tested in court. This is obviously unviable unless you have become a victim of "fraudulent" auction descriptions. I say this simply to advise that anyone in such a position shouldn't meekly accept their T&C without a fight!

I once bought a couple of 1902 crowns from an auction in the midlands. When I received them it was clear they had been misrepresented as they both had brooch clips on the reverse. The only photo on the listing was of the obverse. They took them back no problem.