Another suspect sovereign being auctioned.

[refero]

On 09/04/2022 at 22:28, LawrenceChard said:

What nobody seems to have noticed yet is that it is a

1918 London Mint (no mint mark). These are extremely rare.

that is done on purpose. Creating a coin that doesn't exist cant be considered as a real fraud. It is more a fantasy coin and this is an "escamotage" frequently used by counterfeiters. It's like printing a note of 17 pounds. Fake but with less legal implications

Edited January 7, 2023 by refero

[LawrenceChard]

3 hours ago, refero said:

that is done on purpose. Creating a coin that doesn't exist cant be considered as a real fraud. It is more a fantasy coin and this is an "escamotage" frequently used by counterfeiters. It's like printing a note of 17 pounds. Fake but with less legal implications

In most jurisdictions, that would fail as a legal defence.

😎

[LawrenceChard]

On 09/04/2022 at 18:15, dicker said:

Many do not know better. Coins are not things they specialise in - especially the smaller auctions.

My local auction house is good, professional and I have not seen anything counterfeit in 25 years I have been going there.  But thats because they deal with high end items (art over 100k) so need to stay whiter than white.

This might need to be reported for racist language!

😎

[LawrenceChard]

On 09/04/2022 at 18:18, harrygill111 said:

Wow - I always just assumed thorogh checks are done. Luckily I've only purchased in coin specialist auctions.

Even then, you are not completely safe:

A so-called "reputable" auction house / dealer / BNTA member!

😎

[LawrenceChard]

On 10/04/2022 at 16:26, Seasider said:

The coin cabinet have 2 2017 sovereigns in their next auction described as proofs but the design just looks wrong to me.  I suspect they are SOTD sovereigns misidentified by NGC

2017 Gold Sovereign 200th Anniversary Proof NGC PF 70 ULTRA CAMEO #6134292-019 (AGW=0.2355 oz.) | The Coin Cabinet Auctions

 

On 10/04/2022 at 17:42, sovereignsteve said:

I see what you mean, the obverse does look more SOTD BUNC than proof

Well spotted.

I don't know if they changed the description, but it now says:

DESCRIPTION
UNITED KINGDOM. Elizabeth II, 1952-.
Gold sovereign, 2017. Royal Mint. BU Struck on the Day.
Struck on the day of the 65th anniversary of the accession of Queen Elizabeth II on 6 February 1952.
Fifth crowned head of Elizabeth II facing right; JC below; ELIZABETH II · DEI · GRA · REG · FID · DEF · 2017 ·. Design by Jody Clark. / St. George on horseback rearing right, dragon below, date and B.P. in exergue. Design by Benedetto Pistrucci. Edge milled.
Mislabelled holder as "Proof, 200th Anniversary".
In secure plastic holder, graded NGC PF 70 ULTRA CAMEO, certification number 6134292-019.

NGC Census in this grade: 592, equal-finest graded.
Total NGC Census: 673
Reference: S-SC9A
Mintage: 750.
Diameter: 22.05 mm.
Thickness: 1.52 mm.
Weight: 7.9881 g. (AGW=0.2355 oz.)
Composition: 917.0/1000 Gold.

😎

[jultorsk]

Gold Standard Auctioneers has a true gem rocking up in mere hours - better hurry, this belter is closely uncirculated!

 

 

[Petra]

13 minutes ago, jultorsk said:

Gold Standard Auctioneers has a true gem rocking up in mere hours - better hurry, this belter is closely uncirculated!

 

 

Who the h..ls face is that supposed to be?🤔😮🤮

[LawrenceChard]

1 hour ago, jultorsk said:

Gold Standard Auctioneers has a true gem rocking up in mere hours - better hurry, this belter is closely uncirculated!

 

 

J.F.C!

Have you got a link to it?

OK, I just found it:

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/en-gb/item/143333772_1911-gb-8g-gold-sovereign-closely-uncirculated

 

 

Edited January 7, 2023 by LawrenceChard

[jultorsk]

9 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

J.F.C!

Have you got a link to it?

 

Seems they're operating online auctions on third party platforms only 🤷‍♂️

https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/1911-g-b-8g-gold-sovereign-closely-uncirculated-103445-c-fec475e9db?objectID=176581694&algIndex=upcoming_lots_lotNumber_asc_prod&queryID=3b7870ee5d3d41b1f3ee8cb2bd05236a

 

[LawrenceChard]

6 minutes ago, jultorsk said:

Seems they're operating online auctions on third party platforms only 🤷‍♂️

https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/1911-g-b-8g-gold-sovereign-closely-uncirculated-103445-c-fec475e9db?objectID=176581694&algIndex=upcoming_lots_lotNumber_asc_prod&queryID=3b7870ee5d3d41b1f3ee8cb2bd05236a

 

They are in Texas, what do you expect?

😎

[jultorsk]

1 minute ago, LawrenceChard said:

They are in Texas, what do you expect?

😎

Touché! 😁

[LawrenceChard]

7 hours ago, CollectForFun said:

Meanwhile in Austria:

https://numis24.com/lots/view/63a191b845aa810e9cc2d916

Lot description:

Great Britain 1 pound 1927, with various countermarks, EF/UNC (!?!), rare 😂

@LawrenceChard - do you want to engage in a discussion with yet another Austrian auctioneer, or shall I try this time?

I was going to leave it to you, but then I thought, why not:

To: office@numis24.com

Dear sirs,

Are you aware that this coin

https://numis24.com/lots/view/63a191b845aa810e9cc2d916

is an extremely obvious counterfeit / imitation?

Regards,

Lawrence Chard

Chard (1964) Limited
32 - 36 Harrowside
Blackpool
FY4 1RJ
England, UK.

Tel 0044 (0)1253 343081

www.chards.co.uk

[LawrenceChard]

1 hour ago, jultorsk said:

Seems they're operating online auctions on third party platforms only 🤷‍♂️

https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/1911-g-b-8g-gold-sovereign-closely-uncirculated-103445-c-fec475e9db?objectID=176581694&algIndex=upcoming_lots_lotNumber_asc_prod&queryID=3b7870ee5d3d41b1f3ee8cb2bd05236a

 

I sent them (Invaluable) an e-mail:

To: pr@invaluable.com

Dear Sirs,
As for some reason you do not appear to have a general e-mail address on your website, I have sent this to our PR address.

Are you aware that this coin

https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/1911-g-b-8g-gold-sovereign-closely-uncirculated-103445-c-fec475e9db?objectID=176581694&algIndex=upcoming_lots_lotNumber_asc_prod&queryID=3b7870ee5d3d41b1f3ee8cb2bd05236a

is an extremely obvious counterfeit / imitation?

Regards,

Lawrence Chard

Chard (1964) Limited
32 - 36 Harrowside
Blackpool
FY4 1RJ
England, UK.

Tel 0044 (0)1253 343081

www.chards.co.uk

😎
 

[LawrenceChard]

1 hour ago, LawrenceChard said:

J.F.C!

Have you got a link to it?

OK, I just found it:

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/en-gb/item/143333772_1911-gb-8g-gold-sovereign-closely-uncirculated

I intended to send them (LiveAuctioneers) an e-mail similar to the one I sent to Invaluable, but I could not find an e-mail address for them on their website.

It appears that they do not wish to know or receive communications!

😎

 

 

[Petra]

2 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

J.F.C!

Have you got a link to it?

OK, I just found it:

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/en-gb/item/143333772_1911-gb-8g-gold-sovereign-closely-uncirculated

 

 

Go on! Get a bargain, you know you want to. Bet you haven’t got one of those either in the shop or your own collection!🤔😮🫣

[CollectForFun]

2 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

I was going to leave it to you, but then I thought, why not:

To: office@numis24.com

Dear sirs,

Are you aware that this coin

https://numis24.com/lots/view/63a191b845aa810e9cc2d916

is an extremely obvious counterfeit / imitation?

Regards,

Lawrence Chard

Chard (1964) Limited
32 - 36 Harrowside
Blackpool
FY4 1RJ
England, UK.

Tel 0044 (0)1253 343081

www.chards.co.uk

Thanks, and because Numis24 is basically just a web platform for running online auctions, I contacted also the auction house, the name of which is "Coins of History", directly. I am quite sure Numis24 would forward the message to them, just to be 100% sure that they really receive it, so let's see what they'll do.

And so that you do not think that it is just Austrian numismatists that lack knowledge on British coins (which some admittedly do, clearly), it applies also vice versa: I have recently had an exactly opposite case of Spink UK selling an Austrian 4 ducat which was somewhat suspicious, if for nothing else than at least for the stated weight of 10.90 grams, which was 3 grams less than it should have been. So I inquired about the coin and while I did not receive any response, the lot was withdrawn, so presumably my doubts were justified:

https://www.spink.com/lot/22180000728

Edited January 7, 2023 by CollectForFun

[LawrenceChard]

1 hour ago, CollectForFun said:

Thanks, and because Numis24 is basically just a web platform for running online auctions, I contacted also the auction house, the name of which is "Coins of History", directly. I am quite sure Numis24 would forward the message to them, just to be 100% sure that they really receive it, so let's see what they'll do.

And so that you do not think that it is just Austrian numismatists that lack knowledge on British coins (which some admittedly do, clearly), it applies also vice versa: I have recently had an exactly opposite case of Spink UK selling an Austrian 4 ducat which was somewhat suspicious, if for nothing else than at least for the stated weight of 10.90 grams, which was 3 grams less than it should have been. So I inquired about the coin and while I did not receive any response, the lot was withdrawn, so presumably my doubts were justified:

https://www.spink.com/lot/22180000728

Good thinking.

Re the Spink item:

It is possible that someone typed the weight incorrectly. It should be 14.00 grams, so it may have actually been 13.90; the coin looks OK to me from the photos.

But perhaps we will never know. I guess they failed to inform you.

😎

[Oddjob]

8 hours ago, jultorsk said:

Gold Standard Auctioneers has a true gem rocking up in mere hours - better hurry, this belter is closely uncirculated!

 

 

 

It's still on the list and old mate is jabbering away hard right now....still a ways till he gets to this "rare collectable" 😉

 

[Oddjob]

Congrats to astute collector who paid USD375.00 (+15% buyers comm).

[sovereignsteve]

At least it wasn't GBP😁

[ShineyMagpie]

Wow... err its an " interesting" portrait.

[CollectForFun]

Good news regarding the upcoming Austrian auction discussed above - the lot with fake sovereign has been withhdrawn:

In moments like this I wonder how the auctioneer may feel like, realising that they almost sold clearly fake coin. Although we all make mistakes, so most important is that these folks were at least willing to listen to a well meant advice and some unsuspecting buyer may have been saved an unpleasant surprise...

[CollectForFun]

Let me revive this thread with these new auction listings:

Described rather deceptively as "Gran Bretaña. 1914. Jorge V. 1 libra. (Fr. 404) (KM. 820). Contramarca de cambista en árabe en anverso. AU.", i.e. basically an Arabic countermarked sovereign. No mention of it being possibly an imitation/replica/counterfeit of a sovereign.

Aureo & Calicó - Coin Auction

Aureo & Calicó - Coin Auction

And by the way, there's quite an interest in the coins with bidding already at EUR 420, i.e. almost GBP 425 including the fees... Any chance these specimens being genuine?

[Petra]

Middle East counterfeit 🤔

[jultorsk]

They're counterfeit, but the countermark says they're 22ct. Doesn't mean they've been XRF'd though lol. It is misleading from A&C to list the catalog references for these fakes.

https://www.ngccoin.uk/news/article/3382/Counterfeit-Sovereigns/