Advice on condition of 2022 full sovereign

[James32]

Hi and thanks in advance for your time😁

Looking for advice on condition of my sov and should I send back or am I expecting too much ( absolutely no experience in proofs) 

Pics below and even the way it arrived is shocking , capsule fully open and a rattle from the box ( which was a loose sovereign lol) sorry for the amount of pics but trying to get my point across that to the naked eye it looks ok-ish but under magnification it's a different story. Really appreciate someone checking theirs to see if they have scratches.

[Simmoleon]

Most of the images make the coin look really clean but the high magnification shots are the ones that seem to show issues. I have used high magnification on my proofs before and not seen marks like the ones in your image. If you are confident the marks are on the coins and not the lens then I’d check with a loupe. Graders generally use the naked eye and a x5 magnification for grading and if they can be seen then that could impact on the grading.

The other issue is getting a return from the RM as they never guarantee a coin will be a 70 and if the issue is only present at high magnification they may not take it back. My 2022 sovereign is due on so will check mine to see if I can see anything which is similar 

I’d see what other say but if I checked through a loupe and could see scratches I’d likely return it if possible  

[James32]

Just now, Simmoleon said:

Most of the images make the coin look really clean but the high magnification shots are the ones that seem to show issues. I have used high magnification on my proofs before and not seen marks like the ones in your image. If you are confident the marks are on the coins and not the lens then I’d check with a loupe. Graders generally use the naked eye and a x5 magnification for grading and if they can be seen then that could impact on the grading.

The other issue is getting a return from the RM as they never guarantee a coin will be a 70 and if the issue is only present at high magnification they may not take it back. My 2022 sovereign is due on so will check mine to see if I can see anything which is similar 

I’d see what other say but if I checked through a loupe and could see scratches I’d likely return it if possible  

Thanks for the advice, 

Funny thing is.... I would likely not have checked under magnification at all only it arrived open and rattling.

Kind of feel like because of how it arrived ,I went looking for problems and found some if that makes sense.

 

[BackyardBullion]

I would be returning it for a replacement if it arrived like that.

Last thing to say is that the cotton gloves are not the best to be handling proof coins, you should get some powder less latex or professional coin glove/finger covers. 

[Simmoleon]

Makes perfect sense as I have been in the same boat myself and once you use magnification you find problems or see things you’ve never seen especially at x20 or x40+ 

This is what NGC say:

NGC defines a Mint State or Proof 70 coin as having no post-production imperfections at 5x magnification. Grading is a team effort, with at least two professional numismatists examining every coin. 
 

So if a coin is looking ok at x5 then it will likely do ok-ish. I’d check through a loupe if you have one and see if anything is obvious and visible 

 

[James32]

13 minutes ago, BackyardBullion said:

I would be returning it for a replacement if it arrived like that.

Last thing to say is that the cotton gloves are not the best to be handling proof coins, you should get some powder less latex or professional coin glove/finger covers. 

Thanks for the advice , especially on the gloves ( didn't know other than certainly dont use bare hands)

[James32]

14 minutes ago, Simmoleon said:

Makes perfect sense as I have been in the same boat myself and once you use magnification you find problems or see things you’ve never seen especially at x20 or x40+ 

This is what NGC say:

NGC defines a Mint State or Proof 70 coin as having no post-production imperfections at 5x magnification. Grading is a team effort, with at least two professional numismatists examining every coin. 
 

So if a coin is looking ok at x5 then it will likely do ok-ish. I’d check through a loupe if you have one and see if anything is obvious and visible 

 

Yeah the magnifying glass I'm using has a 3x and a 30x supposedly.

It was the 3x that I noticed the scratch in certain angles/light ( but not enough to photograph) which made me check with the 30x and more scratches appeared.

Any recommendations on a loop?? But its certainly looking like a return ( which is even more problematic) as my account is showing three × half sovereigns lol. When I ordered 1x full and 1x half.

 

[Simmoleon]

If you used a x3 and seen something I’d agree with @BackyardBullionand would be asking for a replacement from RM

[blackadder]

The small tiny hairline marks/ scratches can come from the cotton gloves this however im sure is from the capsule smashing into it.

there's two near her nose as well all these are plain to see with the naked eye.

if you wasn't grading and you really really had to look to see the marks under a loop id keep it.

but there's alot there you can just see so id send it back but what will you get in return.

[James32]

29 minutes ago, blackadder said:

The small tiny hairline marks/ scratches can come from the cotton gloves this however im sure is from the capsule smashing into it.

there's two near her nose as well all these are plain to see with the naked eye.

if you wasn't grading and you really really had to look to see the marks under a loop id keep it.

but there's alot there you can just see so id send it back but what will you get in return.

Appreciate the advice, 

Yeah that's the conundrum as I may just end up with someone else's return 🤣

[blackadder]

6 minutes ago, James32 said:

Appreciate the advice, 

Yeah that's the conundrum as I may just end up with someone else's return 🤣

the blue you can clearly see,whats the bits ive marked red? fluff from the gloves?

[sovereignsteve]

A sort of rippling effect on the fields is common and doesn't effect grading in my experience. Any kind of scratch, abrasion etc is another matter and I would say return. They do say these days that anything that grades as 68 or better is acceptable in their eyes and won't be replaced. This is where experience comes in and I don't pretend to have it concerning the new rules. I have never sent a proof in for grading that has come back less than 69 so I'm not sure what a 68 would look like. I have a feeling that one tiny mark, scratch or similar would get a coin a 69 so I think it would need to be a lot worse to relegate to a 68.
Therfore, it appears the Mint is saying that a coin has to be pretty bad for them to accept a replacement is necessary.
You may have to be pragmatic and return for a refund if you think they will not replace it.

Hope this helps, others may be able to be more specific.

[Stu]

2 hours ago, BackyardBullion said:

I would be returning it for a replacement if it arrived like that.

Last thing to say is that the cotton gloves are not the best to be handling proof coins, you should get some powder less latex or professional coin glove/finger covers. 

Do you mean the infamous finger condoms?

[BackyardBullion]

1 minute ago, Stu said:

Do you mean the infamous finger condoms?

Yes 😂

[James32]

32 minutes ago, sovereignsteve said:

A sort of rippling effect on the fields is common and doesn't effect grading in my experience. Any kind of scratch, abrasion etc is another matter and I would say return. They do say these days that anything that grades as 68 or better is acceptable in their eyes and won't be replaced. This is where experience comes in and I don't pretend to have it concerning the new rules. I have never sent a proof in for grading that has come back less than 69 so I'm not sure what a 68 would look like. I have a feeling that one tiny mark, scratch or similar would get a coin a 69 so I think it would need to be a lot worse to relegate to a 68.
Therfore, it appears the Mint is saying that a coin has to be pretty bad for them to accept a replacement is necessary.
You may have to be pragmatic and return for a refund if you think they will not replace it.

Hope this helps, others may be able to be more specific.

Thanks greatly appreciated.

[westminstrel]

The scratches could very well be from the loose capsule cover grazing the coin while in transit.

If the blemishes bother you so much now, you’ll never be able to love this coin. So just get it replaced - it’s early days.

And cheer up Loki, don’t let this experience sour your taste for Proofs. 🙂

[apachebleu]

 I have a scratched coin too that I'm sending back.

 The way I see it is that the mint are charging a huge premium for proof coins so we should expect them to be perfect, if they are scratched then what are we paying for? May as well just buy bullion coins

[James32]

11 minutes ago, westminstrel said:

The scratches could very well be from the loose capsule cover grazing the coin while in transit.

If the blemishes bother you so much now, you’ll never be able to love this coin. So just get it replaced - it’s early days.

And cheer up Loki, don’t let this experience sour your taste for Proofs. 🙂

🤣🤣🤣 yeah deffs going back!

[James32]

16 minutes ago, apachebleu said:

 I have a scratched coin too that I'm sending back.

 The way I see it is that the mint are charging a huge premium for proof coins so we should expect them to be perfect, if they are scratched then what are we paying for? May as well just buy bullion coins

Yeah that was my initial thoughts and even more so now,completely agree.

[James32]

1 hour ago, blackadder said:

the blue you can clearly see,whats the bits ive marked red? fluff from the gloves?

Yes that's hair off/on the glove.

[James32]

Can't click return yet though...as my closed orders are showing 3x half's instead of 1x full and 1x half 🤣🤣

[Sovstacker]

My opinion is that once arrived in this condition it must be returned. 

[James32]

57 minutes ago, Sovstacker said:

My opinion is that once arrived in this condition it must be returned. 

Thanks 👍

[KevjustKev]

I always film when opening anything I've bought on line. Unscrupulous sellers can say 'So what, you could have faked those photo's.'

[James32]

Just now, tallthinkev said:

I always film when opening anything I've bought on line. Unscrupulous sellers can say 'So what, you could have faked those photo's.'

Very good advice👍 although I hope the rm won't go down that route 😀