New Gold Coin and Bar Testers

[EON]

Hi 

     The minimum is less of a problem, as the platform size can draw the bullion closer to the pendulum, giving increased sensitivity. In general though, not less than a gram.

Thanks

 

     

[EON]

In response to a previous question about a drop off in magnetism. A Neodymium magnet loses 5% of its magnetism over 100 years. So the calibration easily takes care of this.

https://www.first4magnets.com/tech-centre-i61/frequently-asked-questions-i69#anchor27

Search how long does a permanent magnet last.

[ady]

I will put it t out there to all the physicists, surely an a neodymium ball on something like like a mable run track on different parabola be better than a true arc pendulum,   I had this idea when seeing a plumber bend pipes and the thinking about the copper tube trick.  A different parabola would surely give more sensitivity and a race give less friction and closer contact to the tested metal, than just a pendulum. A different approach to a similar idea. Free to anyone to develop!

[EON]

Hi Ady,

it might be possible, there are too many unknowns for me to comment. If you post up an example of it working on a different thread, i’d be happy to give my input on the physics challenges.

Fun to think about anyway,

Thanks,

Rory

 

 

[kimchi]

Very interested in a basic model (or a higher end one depending on the final price) - please feel free to PM me or tag me on here @EON when they're ready to ship

[EON]

Hi Kimchi,

    I will place you in the queue for the first batch and keep you updated on final price for all items,  thanks so much for your interest!

Best Wishes,

Rory

[Skyfiller]

Add me too please @EON

[EON]

Hi Skyfiller, 

I’ll mark you down for a slot in the first batch,  I will be in touch directly with all updates and details as we move forward.

Thanks for your interest

 

 

 

 

[Pete]

Rory,

Have you used your coin tester on silver 1 oz Britannias ?
Would you be able to detect the difference between 999 silver ( Brits dated 2013 to present ) and the earlier Brits which were 958 alloy called Britannia silver ?

Also, in terms of sensitivity can you detect any difference between 22ct and 24 ct gold ?
You could compare the 1 oz Britannia gold coins which are both 22ct and 24ct depending on mintage year.
The 22ct version is slightly heavier as it must contain a full Troy ounce of fine gold.
Same goes for the early silver Brits that weight slightly more.

I am assuming the mass of a coin is also important so maybe a slightly heavier 22ct coin will give a similar reading to its 24ct equivalent but I don't known how sensitive and repeatable your pendulum is.

When I get time I am tempted to build a home-made tester and do some comparisons and include platinum coins.
If I ever construct this I will be more than happy to share the data if it seems useful.

[EON]

Hi Pete,

Great questions thanks!, The device will give a very different reading across ct's regardless of whether they are silver or gold. This is because different ct's of gold and silver have very different conductivity readings. When a metal is alloyed, like for instance the american eagle, which is 91.66% gold, 3% silver and 5.33% copper, your instinct might tell you that the alloy would have the weighted average conductivity of its constituents, this however is not the case, the conductivity of the overall coin becomes less than a fifth that of the original coin constituents. The math for the solution of the conductivity of a coin is surprisingly complicated. What we must remember with the device is that it compares a test coin with an authenticated coin in the database. all the authentic coins you mentioned will have a distinct reading. And therefore can be compared when tested. The variables being tested are as follows, the conductivity, and the topology (shape) of the coin, as well as its mass, you are expected to measure weight and do a dimension check on your coin to confirm density, hence the dimension board, we will also be selling a high sensitivity scale that measures .001 gram, these are not more than 30 Euro on amazon.

I hope that helps clarify, I am also uploading a video showing the repeatability.

 

[EON]

To summarize the above, every coin of a particular composition, shape and weight, of any non ferrous metal will have a particular reading that can be compared to an authenticated coin in the database. 

[kimchi]

3 hours ago, EON said:

To summarize the above, every coin of a particular composition, shape and weight, of any non ferrous metal will have a particular reading that can be compared to an authenticated coin in the database. 

Do you know how the database will be curated/managed?

The problem is there are so many (in the case of silver many hundreds of coins a year) and some are very obscure/rare. But e.g. if you have a silver coin of similar dimensions and the same weight as a known coin, the reading will be similar won't it?

[EON]

Hi Kimchi

In response to the question:

Do you know how the database will be curated/managed?

- Yes, the Idea will be to build the database up over time, we start with the 11 coins (Across the 4 different weights) in gold and silver that are on the EON Measurement Board, that covers the vast majority of the coins on the market in terms of market value (not including numismatics). 

The user will go to the website, enter the coin they wish to test, and we will either have a reading which we will provide to the user and that they can compare the coin reading too, Or if we don't have the coin in the database we can have the user enter the reading, this can be kept in "pending centralized validation" status until it is validated by us for that coin, but can also be made available to the public, for instance if there are 50 readings for the same coin from 50 people and all the readings are the same, then these readings are unlikely to be from fake coins, so the community can support each other in validating the coins, and across the diversity of the coins.

Some coins may be very rare and we at EON may not be able to centrally validate them, but the users can support each other by submitting readings, and comparing them.

We will be able to give heuristic validation based of the size and composition of the coin however, even if we haven't tested that exact coin in the device.

As the database of tests grows we will be able to give statistical probabilities around each coin, based off previous tests submitted.

As the method is reasonably simple the quality and breadth of the services provided will grow over time.

That is the ambition. 

Thanks for the question

 

 

[EON]

And in response to the last question;

if you have a silver coin of similar dimensions and the same weight as a known coin, the reading will be similar won't it?

If two coins are the same weight composition and dimensions, then the readings will be the same. This will tell your they are real. if they are not the same then there is a problem with one of them, and you can check them both in the database, to see where the problem is.

[EON]

Link to fake coins

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/22K-Thick-Gold-Plated-1oz-Gold_60230220082.html?spm=a2700.details.0.0.7f655e64YgOy7t

[arcticfox]

What a brill idea.

Would defo be interested dependent on price.

[sovereignsteve]

5 hours ago, EON said:

Link to fake coins

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/22K-Thick-Gold-Plated-1oz-Gold_60230220082.html?spm=a2700.details.0.0.7f655e64YgOy7t

I assume your tester would detect these fakes but it would be interesting to know if a XRF analyser would do so as well.

@LawrenceChard any idea?

[EON]

XRF results on the Two coins featured in the video

[sovereignsteve]

9 minutes ago, EON said:

XRF results on the Two coins featured in the video

So, to be clear; a genuine gold eagle and the fake plated one you linked in Alibaba?

[EON]

Yes, that right, they are both 2008 American gold eagles, as featured in the video

i bough the fake at that link on Alibaba, it is that coin

[arcticfox]

29 minutes ago, EON said:

Yes, that right, they are both 2008 American gold eagles, as featured in the video

i bough the fake at that link on Alibaba, it is that coin

You paid that price for it ?

[sovereignsteve]

1 hour ago, EON said:

Yes, that right, they are both 2008 American gold eagles, as featured in the video

i bough the fake at that link on Alibaba, it is that coin

I like your devotion to duty.

[EON]

You got to prove the tester works right?.

[SilverStorm]

20 minutes ago, EON said:

You got to prove the tester works right?.

This is what you call dedication!  💪

Edited September 18, 2021 by SilverStorm

[LawrenceChard]

On 15/09/2021 at 11:16, EON said:

Hi

     My name is Rory Roberts, I am the inventor of some new gold coin and bar testers. The products are currently in development, but all have the PCT global Patent. I am very keen to get feedback and interest from knowledgeable gold and silver enthusiasts, I want to work with you to make the products perfect. 

I'm posting a link to the video of the Products. 

I look forward to an interesting discussion.

Thanks

Rory

 

I saw this thread days ago, but didn't respond, thinking I would wait until there was more, clear, information.

I also did not watch the video, as I would have preferred to be able to read at least a brief summary of what it was, how it worked.

I did wonder WTF is a PCT, but mainly because I am not keen on TLAs, so I had to look it up.

On 15/09/2021 at 14:50, EON said:

Thanks Gordy

  The motivation for making these was when I bought a few coins, and once I received them I got a bit of trepidation as to whether or not they were real. Then having done the research on the testers that were out there, I couldn't find much non destructive tests for less than a grand. The overview of Testing Market would include

XRF Testers - which are 5K and up

Traditional Conductivity Testers - Which involve filing the bullion and are generally 500 and up.

Ultrasonic testers -generally over 700.

Eddy Current testers (of which this is one) - but generally over a 1K

Thanks for your comments, I'm glad you like it, its supposed to be fun. Gold and Silver is Aesthetically pleasing, why shouldn't the testers be

I have a google form at the bottom of the video, if you want to be kept informed of its development (no obligation), or join the queue for the first models.

On making them, even though the concept is simple, the electronics is a bit more complicated, so obviously making them in bulk will result in a much better offering.

The more interest I get the cheaper I can make them essentially. 

The Coin Measuring Board is ready to go, it will cost less than 100, once i get sufficient interest i will manufacture and post the first batch.

Good discussion so far!

Thanks to all

 

I would like to know what XRF testers are available for as little as 5K, and whether this is USD, GBP, or IRR (Sorry these are all TLAs, but they are standard international currebcy codes).

I didn't realise Conductivity Testers were Traditional 

What are Ultrasonic testers?

On 15/09/2021 at 15:17, Arcadian said:

I could see it replacing a Newton’s cradle in the CEO’s office, but for many I think the ping tester would be first stop.

😎

On 15/09/2021 at 19:27, EON said:

Hi

Great questions. Thank You

1. Yes it can test through any non conductive packaging.

2. The glass or acrylic case is something that could be easily added. Good feedback.

3. A brief explanation of the physics is as follows. There is a force generated when a conductive body moves in a magnetic field ( or vice versa), this is called an electromotive force, or an eddy current. Silver and gold are the first and third most conductive metals respectively. By measuring, what’s called the dampening effect on the pendulum, and calibrating out the force due to gravity and frictions, we are left with a measurement of the conductivity of the bullion.

Each bullion coin on the market will have a distinct and unique conductivity, this together with the weight and dimension of the coin, tells you the exact composition of the coin in terms of its make up, purity etc.

I hope that’s not too complicated. In summary the motion of the pendulum measures the conductivity of the coin.

4. For gold the device shown can test up too 250 grams. For silver up to 50 grams. This is because of the relative strengths of the dampening forces. After this weights the motion will become over damped, but different sizes of the device can cater for different sizes of bullion.

5. The limitations, this is a good question. As Pete mentions above there is a very slight loss in magnetic strength of a magnet over time. However this is over a period of over 20 years to be noticeable, and is compensated for by the “Tare” functionality. The IOT device can be re calibrated over the internet, we will provide a calibration test sample of some metal like copper.

The scientific method is such that we propose a best solution at anyone time. To my understanding, and across my many consultations, the test will be very hard to beat, if possible at all in the future. 

6. These are being sold as stand alone, with the website account being used to build up a database of results from the coins or bars. For instance with the iot device we can build a database on the counterfeit coins or bars also, we can then advise from the reading if your coin matches a known counterfeit. The plan is to open up precious metal ownership to people, by removing barriers to entry. So the IOT model will be supplied as stand alone, and we will be very transparent about pricing.  Although this does not exclude the possibility of a subsidized model that is subscription based in the future.

I hope that helps, 

Thank you for your Questions

Rory

 

I never realised that an electromotive force was the same as an eddy current.

I also don't understand, from your scientific explanation, how your machines measure (presumably electrical) conductivity, what units are used, and how it communicates this figure to the user.

I  note it can't help with any of our kilo gold bars, possibly good delivery bars, or our 10 kilo Perth Mint silver lunar coins.

If the IOT (another TLA) test can provide an ID, is this an ID-IOT?

On 17/09/2021 at 09:03, EON said:

Hi Pete,

Great questions thanks!, The device will give a very different reading across ct's regardless of whether they are silver or gold. This is because different ct's of gold and silver have very different conductivity readings. When a metal is alloyed, like for instance the american eagle, which is 91.66% gold, 3% silver and 5.33% copper, your instinct might tell you that the alloy would have the weighted average conductivity of its constituents, this however is not the case, the conductivity of the overall coin becomes less than a fifth that of the original coin constituents. The math for the solution of the conductivity of a coin is surprisingly complicated. What we must remember with the device is that it compares a test coin with an authenticated coin in the database. all the authentic coins you mentioned will have a distinct reading. And therefore can be compared when tested. The variables being tested are as follows, the conductivity, and the topology (shape) of the coin, as well as its mass, you are expected to measure weight and do a dimension check on your coin to confirm density, hence the dimension board, we will also be selling a high sensitivity scale that measures .001 gram, these are not more than 30 Euro on amazon.

I hope that helps clarify, I am also uploading a video showing the repeatability.

 

I had to stop to think about ct's, but after I gave up and read on, I realised (I hope) that you meant carats, not computerised tomography scans. Perhaps the gratuitous apostrophe threw me!

I made the mistake of watching this second video first. I spent about 2 minutes wondering why there was no soumd, checking my system, checking a random YouTube video, before settling back to watch the silent movie, when the music started at full blast because I had turned the voume up to maximum. The main thing I learned from this video is that it was rather boring, and contained no actual information, or anything else useful. I almost fell asleep.

 

On 17/09/2021 at 15:08, EON said:

And in response to the last question;

if you have a silver coin of similar dimensions and the same weight as a known coin, the reading will be similar won't it?

If two coins are the same weight composition and dimensions, then the readings will be the same. This will tell your they are real. if they are not the same then there is a problem with one of them, and you can check them both in the database, to see where the problem is.

So if I test 2 x 1841 gold sovereigns, are you telling me it will know one if a counterfeit, even if it has an identical alloy composition?

Actually, I think both would be real, even if one was fake. I hope I would not be stupid enough to test an imaginary sovereign. 😎

8 hours ago, EON said:

Link to fake coins

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/22K-Thick-Gold-Plated-1oz-Gold_60230220082.html?spm=a2700.details.0.0.7f655e64YgOy7t

Probably a year ago, I was thinking about buying a similar gold-plated tungsten coin (Krugerrand), but with more detailed description and specifications. 

I hesitated because I did not entirely trust the Chinese vendor, and the linked one raises more questions and doubts.

Still, bravo, for buying it to test.

2 hours ago, sovereignsteve said:

I assume your tester would detect these fakes but it would be interesting to know if a XRF analyser would do so as well.

@LawrenceChard any idea?

I would hope that our Niton XRF machine would do OK.

As standard, we test both sides, and note any significant variations. I also test each side for 60 seconds. The inclusiong of the other metals in the alloy is helpful.

2 hours ago, EON said:

XRF results on the Two coins featured in the video

I would have like more information about the make and model of tester, and the duration of time tested.

Also, a clear simple explanation of which test related to which coin.

Any equipment needs to be used with some thought.

The deficiency in the gold content is sufficient warning, plus the message "Gold Plate Probable" is also important. 

2 hours ago, sovereignsteve said:

So, to be clear; a genuine gold eagle and the fake plated one you linked in Alibaba?

I'm glad you asked that, and that I was not the only one wanting a clear explanation.

 

Before responding, I watched the first video. 

The music annoyed me, but then so does most of the music in @ChardsCoinandBullionDealer videos. It was highly soporific. i had to fight to stay awake, and almost lost the will to live or continue watching, although I felt duty bound to.

Disappointingly, I learnt little, except the producer likes to do long, lingering, moody, soft focus, shots, with lots of different, gimmicky, and annoying transitions. there was certainly a distinct lack of useful information. I am left wondering if the former was a clever use of hypnosis to lack of the latter.

This reminds me of past times when I have wanted to buy a product or service, but have been successfly dissuaded by the salesman.

I hope I have not alienated @EON by stating my opinions. I have done so free of charge, a managememt consultant would have charged at least £1000, and taken 6 weeks.

 

 

 

I am always interested in new, or additional ways to test precious metals