Sovereigns - Am i just the only one who doesn't get excited by them ? Despite all history etc

[Paul]

8 minutes ago, SilverMike said:

And that’s completely fine Paul, I have no probably with anyone one making money however they wish, buy and flip, buy hold flip, great 👍 I also do that. But if thats all you do then I can understand why you struggle to grasp the reasons why people collect sovereigns and likely anything else for the simple reasons they are sovereigns, rather than necessarily an appreciating asset 

You make some good points Mike to consider and take on board. What is so nice on here, getting others input and opinions on things

[LawrenceChard]

22 hours ago, Paul said:

This question has been on my mind while the forum has been offline and thought might make for an interesting thread

As subject says - I cant be the only person thinking this surely? 

All these different die types, strikes, R ratings, mintage levels, collectability, country of issue, mintage numbers

They all look the bloody same to me !  

I can fully appreciate why folk collect them but i somehow just cant get wowed and revved up by them to commit more into buying them  

Anyones opinions and shoot downs of my opinion are most welcome to try and convince me otherwise 

 

Way back in about 1964 we were selling gold sovereigns at £4 each, £37.50 per 10, £365 per 100, and £3500 per 1000.
We can remember telling collectors that collecting sovereigns was cheaper than collecting pennies. Indeed a collection from Queen Victoria to date may well have cost less in sovereigns than in pennies or most other denominations. Sovereigns usually turn up in relatively good condition, whereas most other denominations suffer from considerable wear. However more often than not our excellent advice was ignored, perhaps because it was free!

The above is from a page I wrote in 1998, which you can find here:

https://24carat.co.uk/collectingcoinsframe.html

Nothing much has changed, except prices have gone up by a factor of about 90.

Back then, we used to sell minty ones or scarce dates, mintmarks etc., for £5 each.

If you think they all look the same, be sure to pick out any 1828, 1841, 1908-C, 1917-L (mintage 1,014,714), 1920-S, 1937 Edward VIII, 1953, and a whole load more. Send them to us, and we will give you at least 2-4-1. As they all look the same, you won't care! 🙂

Actually, I like Victoria shields. Many of them have die cracks or die clashes, so even if you get two with the same date and die number, they are often different. It gets even more interesting to find two sovereigns of the same date, each with the same obverse die crack, but different die numbers on the reverse. Fascinating!, and that's from someone who has seen and owned literally millions of sovereigns.

 

[Shinus73]

I jump in and out, for the reason you give I think. They get a bit samey.

I used to have a decent number of bullion sovereigns and sold them all, in favour of graded proof gold, as I love graded coins.

I’m now in the process of building a graded sovereign collection, for keeps I think. The idea of being able to upgrade every now and then, keeps it interesting.

 

[Richym99]

1 hour ago, LawrenceChard said:

Way back in about 1964 we were selling gold sovereigns at £4 each, £37.50 per 10, £365 per 100, and £3500 per 1000.

  

 

 

Sob... just working out the inflation adjustnent, you would be paying £73,000 today for 1000 sovereigns, worth £308,000. 

It brings home just how much just the intrinsic value has changed not even allowing for the added value of coins that are now 50+ years older. Many of them have never seen circulation either.    

[LawrenceChard]

2 minutes ago, Richym99 said:

Sob... just working out the inflation adjustnent, you would be paying £73,000 today for 1000 sovereigns, worth £308,000. 

It brings home just how much just the intrinsic value has changed not even allowing for the added value of coins that are now 50+ years older. Many of them have never seen circulation either.    

Yes, the inflation / devaluation factor is food for thought.

When I say devaluation, instead of thinking about how much more gold (and other stuff) has gone up, think of it as how much the pound sterling (or most other currencies), have gone down in value.

[Richym99]

19 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

Yes, the inflation / devaluation factor is food for thought.

When I say devaluation, instead of thinking about how much more gold (and other stuff) has gone up, think of it as how much the pound sterling (or most other currencies), have gone down in value.

Which is why I started collecting sovereigns, because money in a savings account can be worth nothing overnight. The collapse of the Russian banks taught me that. Savings that would buy you a car, suddenly were worth nothing when the banks reopened. 

Word has it the US banks are in trouble with insufficient cash reserves.     

[LawrenceChard]

3 minutes ago, Richym99 said:

Word has it the US banks are in trouble with insufficient cash reserves.     

That, and similar stories have been going around for years. Not just about commercial banks, but also central banks. It's worth reading about banking history, reserve banking, fractional reserve banking, leverage, gearing, derivatives...

Many share prices look like bubbles.

Many third world countries have rampant inflation / devaluation, but it almost certainly will happen again to one or more major currencies eventually; we just don;t know which and when.

If the above sounds risky, you could always have a gamble on cryptocurrencies, and hope you get out with a profit before the next big, or final, crash.

Sound cheerful, don't I? 

...and I am not even a conspiracy theorist.

[Smiler999]

I've 6 of them, 2020 and this years, horrid looking things, look no more like gold than I do  

Copper look is unappealing but its gold and nothing more

Kangaroos on the other hand mmmmmm lol

[Foster88]

1 hour ago, Smiler999 said:

I've 6 of them, 2020 and this years, horrid looking things, look no more like gold than I do  

Copper look is unappealing but its gold and nothing more

Kangaroos on the other hand mmmmmm lol

I agree that the new Sovereigns look a little unappealing. As someone who has both new Sovereigns, Victoria Sheild Sovereigns, George V and Elizabeth Gillicks.

I can safely say, I don’t think you’d have the same opinion if you didn’t just have ones from the last few years.

In my opinion there’s no comparison.

[Foster88]

@Paul When I first read your post I was going to say, I’ve got a bar of soap to wash your mouth out. 😂 Joking of course.

However you do raise quite a good and interesting point. I suppose it’s like anything, one persons collection or interest isn’t for everyone. I imagine it’s the same with stamp collecting or militaria collecting for example.

I can only say from my perspective, I started with Sovereigns which got me into gold. I prefer them to say modern minted gold coins as I like the history. It’s interesting to see that some don’t like the variations in them and the different mints, the grading, knowing which are normal, common or rare according to Marsh. But, this is why I like them, I’m almost at the end of collecting all the George V, small head variety. Just last week one sold for over £800, it was the 1931 Melbourne mint. I missed it sadly but I would have paid that.

It is an interesting point you’ve raised and what someone likes and can appreciate, to others it’s just worth its weight in gold.

Sovereigns get a big thumbs up from me. 👍🏻

[CadmiumGreen]

I must admit, I quite like the extensive history and diverse varieties of the Gold Sovereign. Having acquired a great breadth of Sovereigns from 1817 to present, with almost all examples of the obverse effigies. The references and documentation abound can send one into trying to research all the details, and barely scratch the surface, which comes with time and experience on collecting the Gold Sovereign. The perspectives are even more annunciated with the Gold Sovereign having been an everyday fiat-like coin, a collectors coin, a gold stackers coin, and a concealable gold piece to be used in a time of war for escape and evasion. That is what I find intriguing in the Gold Sovereign...and I’m from the US!

[papi1980]

I’m a new member at Silverforum, but just wanted to share my views on sovereigns. At first, they looked inferior to me, for both collecting or stacking. They looked small, not pure gold (22kt), not the most appealing, recent mintage looks like copper, etc. Hard to me to evaluate them.... I found gold Britannia much better choice. Easier to understand...

However, when I started reading more about Sovereigns and their history, I changed my mind 180 degrees

Now I collect only Sovs. I firmly believe that British sovereign is the superior gold coin choice for both stackers and collectors

For stackers (in the UK)

1. tax advantage (makes them superior to Krug’s and other non British gold coins)

2. Most liquid UK coin- I tested with my local jewellery shop and they immediately gave me an offer for 1914 and 1913 Sov...close to spot. If you want to sell 1oz Britannia, immediately...good luck 

3. margins over sport are lower in my view compared to Britannia (at least in TSF)

For collectors 

1. best variety and collection combinations compared to all other gold coins I know (you can collect years, monarchs, mintage places, strike differences, etc) and you have 200 years to do that. You can literally spend a lifetime collecting all sovereigns minted. Try the same with Britannia or Krug’s 

2. The coin is still in release (compared to ducats, other gold coins)

3. There is a wide market for them at coin shops, so new collectors can start quickly. Much harder to collect Britannia’s and if you decide, places to buy are few. Again, if I collect Sovereigns, I can go to my shop and they had a Victoria YH 1872, which i could acquire if I missed it in my collection

4. Sovs are 22ct so harder to dent or scratch compared to Britannia’s or other pure gold coin

Again, here there are people who have collected for years and probably would disagree with me, but this is how it looks to me after 1 year of collecting:)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dicker]

When I first started, I was of the same opinion as the OP.

Having bought some Victoria Shields, I was hooked completely.  An amazing coin with an amazing history.

I collect particularly Aussie Sovs, and very much enjoy the history of the Sovs struck in the Branch mints   

Best

Dicker

[Chrissyblards1]

On 07/05/2021 at 22:31, Paul said:

This question has been on my mind while the forum has been offline and thought might make for an interesting thread

As subject says - I cant be the only person thinking this surely? 

All these different die types, strikes, R ratings, mintage levels, collectability, country of issue, mintage numbers

They all look the bloody same to me !  

I can fully appreciate why folk collect them but i somehow just cant get wowed and revved up by them to commit more into buying them  

Anyones opinions and shoot downs of my opinion are most welcome to try and convince me otherwise 

 

I don’t think they are amazing to look at to be honest but they are very liquid and I’m sure I will do ok when releasing any of mine. If I ever do that is. 😂

[LawrenceChard]

On 08/05/2021 at 23:06, Smiler999 said:

I've 6 of them, 2020 and this years, horrid looking things, look no more like gold than I do  

Copper look is unappealing but its gold and nothing more

That's mainly because the Royal Mint have been making them in "red" gold, only alloyed with copper. The addition of a small proportion of silver produces a much more attractive and natural looking yellow colour. As little as 3 parts silver per 1000 is enough, and the extra cost is negligible.

This page of our website gives an insight into this, and we will shortly be filling in some of the gaps in the timeline.

https://www.chards.co.uk/blog/analysis-of-alloy-content-of-gold-sovereigns/180

I believe the someone in the marketing or production department of the Royal Mint mistakenly believed that sovereigns were historically made of red gold, so almost all Queen Elizabeth II gold sovereigns contain little or no silver.

 

[Smiler999]

6 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

That's mainly because the Royal Mint have been making them in "red" gold, only alloyed with copper. The addition of a small proportion of silver produces a much more attractive and natural looking yellow colour. As little as 3 parts silver per 1000 is enough, and the extra cost is negligible.

This page of our website gives an insight into this, and we will shortly be filling in some of the gaps in the timeline.

I believe the someone in the marketing or production department of the Royal Mint mistakenly believed that sovereigns were historically made of red gold, so almost all Queen Elizabeth II gold sovereigns contain little or no silver.

 

Would the mint not think about changing it then lol

[LawrenceChard]

1 minute ago, Smiler999 said:

Would the mint not think about changing it then lol

Probably not, they appear to be particularly stubborn.

I guess it is a type of arrogance. "We are the Royal Mint, have been making British coins for 1100 years, we are the experts, so we are not going to listen to anyone else, what do they know". I have been observing this sort of attitude from the Royal Mint since 2000, and it was probably around earlier.

The people at the Royal Mint Museum (Historical Services) have always struck me as very good, it is mainly the marleting department that seems to be the worst.

[27carrots]

19 hours ago, papi1980 said:

If you want to sell 1oz Britannia, immediately...good luck

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On the forum it would take you minutes to get spot with a bit of positive feedback and you'd get takers at +1 or 2%. Getting at them at that price is the hard bit. But I think cheapest sovs are best for easily getting them at the price you can cash them in for. About +4.5% seems to be the magic number.

[Nugget]

Nope, I am the same.

I only buy bullion stuff (Sovereigns and Brits) and I would say that none of them excite me personally lol.

I couldn't give a monkey what head is on it, what colour it is or anything.  It's just, well, gold to me.

However, people like and find pleasure in different things and that's what makes the world go around.

[GoldenGriffin]

I have a 2021 - 1 sovereign in proof and I really like the design and also appreciate the differences.

However, the intense coppery colour on the new sovereigns put me off slightly from buying any more coppery ones.

I would, however, seriously consider buying the older ones that have a mixture of copper and silver or just silver with the gold.

Very nice coin.

I'm definitely no expert, but the composition change could potentially relate to either tax purposes and or the possibility of silver going much higher in value and copper, not so much?

Some people may not like Peter Schiff, but he seems to know his stuff - see below from his site.

If higher import taxes are applied to lower purity gold coins, then could other taxes be applied to these types of coins in the future?