KevinFlynn

Actually last week I received a little Christmas present, a guilty pleasure...
Silver Bar, 250g, Degussa (historical)

Actually last week I received a little Christmas present, a guilty pleasure...
Silver Bar, 250g, Degussa (historical)

Historical means old Degussa. Degussa was a German precious metals refinery (among other business fields) since before 1900. Degussa used to be a household name in regards to gold and silver. The precious metal business was sold to Umicore somewhere after 2000. The Degussa name has been sold around 2010, the new company became one of the largest precious metal dealers in Germany.
So in regards to Degussa bars we think of three types:
Old Degussa bars, produced by the original Degussa refinery - these bars have a characteristic "coffin" form, as can be seen in the photo (more pronounced on larger bars).
Umicore bars, which are identical or very close to old Degussa bars (see here and here).
The New Degussa does not produce it's own bars but has bars produced by other refineries, stamped as Degussa - like Valcambi (earlier) and Argor Heraeus (later). These bars are more flat and less "coffin" like.
In my eyes: the old Degussa form is the most attractive due to it's chunkiness. While Umicore will deliver the form, the Umicore logo is very modern and industrial, while the Degussa logo is more classical. Then new Degussa bars are nothing like the old ones. I own some of those new bars (see somewhere above in this thread), but I'm not a fan.
So, I do not know how old this bar is, chances are it could be a mere 15 years old, though the serial number makes that unlikely. Most important to me is the old form, an old Degussa has always been on my list.

Actually last week I received a little Christmas present, a guilty pleasure...
Silver Bar, 250g, Degussa (historical)

Actually last week I received a little Christmas present, a guilty pleasure...
Silver Bar, 250g, Degussa (historical)

Actually last week I received a little Christmas present, a guilty pleasure...
Silver Bar, 250g, Degussa (historical)

Actually last week I received a little Christmas present, a guilty pleasure...
Silver Bar, 250g, Degussa (historical)

Actually last week I received a little Christmas present, a guilty pleasure...
Silver Bar, 250g, Degussa (historical)

Actually last week I received a little Christmas present, a guilty pleasure...
Silver Bar, 250g, Degussa (historical)

Actually last week I received a little Christmas present, a guilty pleasure...
Silver Bar, 250g, Degussa (historical)

A point that is missed reading earlier comments is that UK stackers wanting to buy new issue silver cannot avoid paying 20% VAT whereas our own Royal Mint produced silver sells to some European countries for either 0% VAT ( Estonia up until summer ) or the EU dealers are willing to use the differential VAT scheme meaning very low VAT to their customers.
I need multiple 2022 issue coins when they are released but have no choice but to pay 20% VAT to whoever has them for sale.
Stackers in the EU or the USA for example can buy the same coins approximately 20% cheaper.
Buying second hand, for example on the SF, although VAT is not shown as an added tax, it is kind of built-in as silver will sell at the going rate which is higher in the UK than elsewhere for this reason.

I am not too worried about toning and spotting. I don't expect ever to realise the investment, that is for the grandkids. By the time they realise their inheritance, i expect that there will be a non damaging treatment to restore the coins to their former glory.

Actually last week I received a little Christmas present, a guilty pleasure...
Silver Bar, 250g, Degussa (historical)

Actually last week I received a little Christmas present, a guilty pleasure...
Silver Bar, 250g, Degussa (historical)

Actually last week I received a little Christmas present, a guilty pleasure...
Silver Bar, 250g, Degussa (historical)

Actually last week I received a little Christmas present, a guilty pleasure...
Silver Bar, 250g, Degussa (historical)

Silver Bar, 250g, Degussa (historical)

 

 

The way I see it, yes.
There is a narrative of silver waiting for a breakout (e.g. Mike Maloney), which promoted silver. Silver is also an acceptable investment in the US, where there's no VAT in most states.
But VAT is killing the idea in Britain and most of Europe. It used to be a viable idea, the Silver Forum used to import VAT free silver from the baltic states, (for me) Germany had only 7% on silver coins, but those times are gone.
I say you can put a couple kilos aside as a speculative investment if you're adventurous. If silver does explode, you will at least participate, but don't build your investment strategy on it. Getting some collectible coins will be nice and affordable in silver, if you can avoid milk spotting or tarnishing.
All in all gold does not have any of those problems. Fractional, or trade coins are good options for entry level investment. And if you want to speculate on silver maybe get paper silver.

Taking @Bimetallic's comment, I want to look into the subconsciousness of the silver stacking community...
The UK, Germany, and most of Europe raise a 20+/-% VAT on silver, but not on gold.
So why are we not more aware of VAT? Should the silver section of this largely European forum come with a disclaimer? Should we be on The Gold Forum ?
Why is there even a private silver market in the UK (or Germany - my insight - for that matter)?
Are people stacking silver because of a large American presence in Youtube silver stacking? Are we a herd of sheep in our own way that way?
Or would we think that everyone stacking silver is a Maloney follower and is stacking for the large breakout when the gold:silver ratio shoots up to 15:1?
 
I began stacking silver in 2010/2011 because seemingly everyone stacked silver. Also the expressed silver community seemed somehow friendlier than the expressed gold community - the lower entry cost had more small everyday stackers with more comparable achievements to me as a Mr. Small investor. In Germany, VAT looked negligible with the lower VAT of 7% on silver (I bought bars at 19% though). Wanting to own a multitude of 'hot' collectibles  (Lunars, Pandas) was more affordable in silver. I decided on a ratio of 1 ounce of gold to one kilogram of silver back then.
Fast forward to 2020/2021 I'm tending more to gold, with an occasional tube of silver thrown in. While that largely has to do with a better financial background on my side, I am feeling that the combined weight of VAT plus premiums on silver is brutal (all silver is on the higher VAT of 19% in Germany these days). And the more I'm thinking, the more I the facts are being hit over head the more silver is becoming a no no for me. I'm still thinking about buying silver collectibles - I'm feeling it's less of a gamble in silver, and that feeling is correct on the total worth aspect, but wrong on the relative return aspect.
 
So, what are we doing here? Are you stacking silver under VAT? Have your silver stacking habits changed?

Quarter ounce gold is a nice size for sets, I think. If bought at the moment of issue.
On silver and VAT, we had a thread collecting opinions: Why are people stacking Silver over Gold when there is a VAT on silver?

I got a whole set of Queen's Beasts in silver (plus a couple extras). I put them into the vault and did not look at them. When I finished the set this year I got them together and found a certain level of whiffing or smudging. They're still okay if looked at from afar, but it's not a pristine set. Now I know it's only bullion, but the price development tells otherwise. At that moment I realized silver cannot be a serious investment for me.
I would still collect any reasonably priced bullion series if I liked it, because it's cheap enough. And I would get any silver at melt or even spot (wishful thinking).
I envy our american friends as silver is different over there. And I would love to stack more bars. Cast bars are a thing to behold, but cast gold bars are out of my investment range.

The way I see it, yes.
There is a narrative of silver waiting for a breakout (e.g. Mike Maloney), which promoted silver. Silver is also an acceptable investment in the US, where there's no VAT in most states.
But VAT is killing the idea in Britain and most of Europe. It used to be a viable idea, the Silver Forum used to import VAT free silver from the baltic states, (for me) Germany had only 7% on silver coins, but those times are gone.
I say you can put a couple kilos aside as a speculative investment if you're adventurous. If silver does explode, you will at least participate, but don't build your investment strategy on it. Getting some collectible coins will be nice and affordable in silver, if you can avoid milk spotting or tarnishing.
All in all gold does not have any of those problems. Fractional, or trade coins are good options for entry level investment. And if you want to speculate on silver maybe get paper silver.

For wealth preservation, gold is where it's at, due to already stated reasons.
But silver is nice for collectibles and unique pieces which would be too expensive or too much of a risk in gold.
At least the way I see it.
 

Hello!
i’ve started collecting silver coins not so long ago and I was searching informations about platinum coins when I discovered this place. Many useful topics and great community… so I’m joining  
see you on topics,