What is a handwritten signature? (Trial of the Pyx)

[paulmerton]

This is the first time the Trial of the Pyx coins have been sold pre-slabbed, thus introducing us to bizarre new grading terms such as "Brilliant Proof".

But one thing that has niggled me throughout this launch is that each coin says it's housed in a display holder which features a handwritten signature by Anne Jessopp:

I know many of us here are big fans of her, so I can see the appeal of this selling point.

However, all of the capsules clearly say that it's a facsimile signature:

There is another signature on the back of the packaging it comes in, but that is also printed.

I guess the signatures must have been hand written at some point, but it feels like they're pushing the boundaries of truth here!

 

[KurtCollects]

Hmmmm.... Has a whiff of miss-selling about it 😇

[TheAnimist]

I guess they'd say they're being up front by stating it's a facsimile signature... but you'd think given the limited number of the Pyx coins, and the extra cost attached to them she could actually sit down and sign a few cards... 

[KurtCollects]

3 minutes ago, TheAnimist said:

I guess they'd say they're being up front by stating it's a facsimile signature... but you'd think given the limited number of the Pyx coins, and the extra cost attached to them she could actually sit down and sign a few cards... 

Yeah; but I think the point is in their description of the product (as posted above) they describe it as "Housed in a display holder which features a handwritten signature by Anne Jessopp.."

 

That would suggest actually handwritten; like when they sold the Martin Jennings graded and signed pieces (that were actually hand signed)

[westminstrel]

I recall the COAs of the SotD Sovereigns were actually hand signed in ball point pen. 

[paulmerton]

8 minutes ago, westminstrel said:

I recall the COAs of the SotD Sovereigns were actually hand signed in ball point pen. 

Yes, the platty joobs SOTD sovereigns were hand signed by Gavin Elliott, who was the head of production at the time.

The SYO ones were hand signed by Graeme Smith, who was the Queen's Assay Master.

Last year's SYO BU Britannias were hand signed by Anne Jessopp (I think).

The logistics of the trial coins being sent off to America to get graded probably made it tricky to do real hand signed one.

[GoldDiggerDave]

5 hours ago, paulmerton said:

This is the first time the Trial of the Pyx coins have been sold pre-slabbed, thus introducing us to bizarre new grading terms such as "Brilliant Proof".

But one thing that has niggled me throughout this launch is that each coin says it's housed in a display holder which features a handwritten signature by Anne Jessopp:

I know many of us here are big fans of her, so I can see the appeal of this selling point.

However, all of the capsules clearly say that it's a facsimile signature:

There is another signature on the back of the packaging it comes in, but that is also printed.

I guess the signatures must have been hand written at some point, but it feels like they're pushing the boundaries of truth here!

 

"Brilliant Proof "    Looks like a new grading scale has been made up.  

Gem Proof, is available for bulk submissions and this as I understand it is a general grade for batches of coins that all would be in the range of MS/PF65+   This has been used to grade my Trail of the PYX gold proof 50p and it makes sense at i did not want them to take out of the RM trail of the pyx packaging so its reasonable that an arbitrary classification/grade stance is taken.   

If the RM are sending in raw coins and theres only 7 (2-7) as the one above its not a bulk submission, I feel the coin should be given a straight grade.... if they can and here's the problem as I see it.   Many of these trial  pyx coins are in layman's terms are just mullered by the handling process.....I don't mind this as it all adds to the flavour so to speak.   Many of these coin submitted raw would come back in body bags and would not be graded as they are damaged and scratched,  or if they do grade there is a high chance they would be UNC details obverse scratched etc and would hammer the retailability 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 17 by GoldDiggerDave

[DisplayName]

It does what it says on the can. It's a hand written signature, displayed on the product. There's no relation between the signature and the product, its just digitally tacked on, instead of manually added, which is what the issue seems to be about. Nowhere, however, is it said that the signature is manually added, despite this being the suggestion made. 

It's the closest thing to scamming I've seen in a while. Remarkably dark business this mint is. Yet legal. 

Edited April 17 by DisplayName

[westminstrel]

I’ve always maintained that coin grading is a business based off of a non-existent problem that was fabricated to create a solution.

A coin AUTHENTICATION service makes sense.

Grading is not a science or fact - it will always be a grey area, and as we’ve seen, companies that have a duopoly can come up with anything they want.

Brilliant Proof, Gem Proof, Gem Uncirculated, Brilliant Uncirculated, star, cameo, ultra cameo.

Not to mention designations like First Releases (as if that makes any difference to a coin’s quality!)

Or special labels.

Novelties.

You can see how it’s a business model that’s gone well beyond its purpose and nicely suckered people in. 🙂

[KurtCollects]

3 minutes ago, westminstrel said:

I’ve always maintained that coin grading is a business based off of a non-existent problem that was fabricated to create a solution.

A coin AUTHENTICATION service makes sense.

Grading is not a science or fact - it will always be a grey area, and as we’ve seen, companies that have a duopoly can come up with anything they want.

Brilliant Proof, Gem Proof, Gem Uncirculated, Brilliant Uncirculated, star, cameo, ultra cameo.

Not to mention designations like First Releases (as if that makes any difference to a coin’s quality!)

Or special labels.

Novelties.

You can see how it’s a business model that’s gone well beyond its purpose and nicely suckered people in. 🙂

 

The grading and that aside though, what do you think of TRM describing it as "handwritten signature" v the "facsimile" that turns up? 

Seems a bit meh to me; describing it as something it isn't and it does make a difference to some people in terms of what they're getting. Even if they point to the image of the coins on the site, they very clearly have the disclaimer that it's "representative of the coin you will receive" and all that. 

No doubt it's a genuine mistake that's just been C+P across all the pyx listings, but a bit of difference!

[Petra]

The mint appears to have switched on to the fact that the Trial of the Pyx can be another big money earner. Where else would we pay such a premium for damaged coins (I do have a small coin from the trial😮🤔) 🤔😮

[SlowFrog]

3 hours ago, paulmerton said:

 

I know many of us here are big fans of her, so I can see the appeal of this selling point.

 

Is this serious? Sorry, I don't know who she is so it's a genuine question! I'd imagine it's sarcastic but you never know.. 

As for the description, it does indeed feel like they're pushing the boundaries of truth. 

[westminstrel]

1 hour ago, KurtCollects said:

 

The grading and that aside though, what do you think of TRM describing it as "handwritten signature" v the "facsimile" that turns up? 

Seems a bit meh to me; describing it as something it isn't and it does make a difference to some people in terms of what they're getting. Even if they point to the image of the coins on the site, they very clearly have the disclaimer that it's "representative of the coin you will receive" and all that. 

No doubt it's a genuine mistake that's just been C+P across all the pyx listings, but a bit of difference!

The marketing person who wrote the webpage content was probably thinking of “handwritten signature”. as opposed to “digitally signed”.

Handwritten signature seems to include facsimiles, and digital copies of signatures that originated as physically written by hand on paper.

So technically speaking, it would seem they haven’t really misrepresented things.

Still, I can see why people’s expectations would be different. I’d have expected physically signed too purely based on that description.

[shawy2510]

5 hours ago, GoldDiggerDave said:

"Brilliant Proof "    Looks like a new grading scale has been made up.  

Gem Proof, is available for bulk submissions and this as I understand it is a general grade for batches of coins that all would be in the range of MS/PF65+   This has been used to grade my Trail of the PYX gold proof 50p and it makes sense at i did not want them to take out of the RM trail of the pyx packaging so its reasonable that an arbitrary classification/grade stance is taken.   

If the RM are sending in raw coins and theres only 7 (2-7) as the one above its not a bulk submission, I feel the coin should be given a straight grade.... if they can and here's the problem as I see it.   Many of these trial  pyx coins are in layman's terms are just mullered by the handling process.....I don't mind this as it all adds to the flavour so to speak.   Many of these coin submitted raw would come back in body bags and would not be graded as they are damaged and scratched,  or if they do grade there is a high chance they would be UNC details obverse scratched etc and would hammer the retailability 

 

 

 

 

I got this graded last year which I purchased from you. Annoyingly they took it out of the packaging when told not to & assigned it a PF63UCAM. I had a whinge which it then came back a Brilliant Proof which I think was the 1st to be described as such. I have just aquired another of the same coin but I will be keeping that in the packaging for grading.

 

[JamesH]

Should be getting the Trial of the Pyx 1/10 Gold Standard tomorrow. Interested to see what that’s labelled as 👍🏼

[paulmerton]

1 hour ago, JamesH said:

Should be getting the Trial of the Pyx 1/10 Gold Standard tomorrow. Interested to see what that’s labelled as 👍🏼

Those will be Brilliant Uncirculated.

[Stuntman]

I think it's a blatant misdescription to call it a handwritten signature when it clearly isn't.  It's a copy of a handwritten signature.

[JamesH]

37 minutes ago, paulmerton said:

Those will be Brilliant Uncirculated.

Ah ok, cool, thank you sir 👍🏼

[Stuntman]

I was interested to see those Gold Standard bullion coins that don't seem to have been available to buy as retail bullion products (specifically the 1oz, 1/2 oz and 1/10 oz).  I would love to buy a 1oz bullion version of that coin, but not a Trial of the Pyx one.

[Petra]

A lot of the Pyx coins actually look quite normal when you look at them, you can only see the damage when you start looking close up at them🤔

[GoodAsGold]

4 hours ago, shawy2510 said:

I got this graded last year which I purchased from you. Annoyingly they took it out of the packaging when told not to & assigned it a PF63UCAM. I had a whinge which it then came back a Brilliant Proof which I think was the 1st to be described as such. I have just aquired another of the same coin but I will be keeping that in the packaging for grading.

 

Hi Shawy.  I’m none the wiser with the Brilliant Proof description. Is your coin the Deep Proof Like reverse with the BU obverse, or is it the full proof, i.e. both obverse and reverse sides?  The back of the slab is the obvious difference between each version. Thanks.

[westminstrel]

Since we’re on the topic… here is an actual physical signature.

[James32]

10 minutes ago, westminstrel said:

Since we’re on the topic… here is an actual physical signature.

Who's Amold Muulin ?

[westminstrel]

5 hours ago, James32 said:

Who's Amold Muulin ?

It’s Arnold Machin.

He designed the QE II portrait that appeared on all definitive stamps from 1967.

 

And of course he also designed the “Second Portrait” that appeared on decimal coins and Sovereigns for a time.

 

https://www.royalmintmuseum.org.uk/journal/people/arnold-machin/

[James32]

2 hours ago, westminstrel said:

It’s Arnold Machin.

He designed the QE II portrait that appeared on all definitive stamps from 1967.

 

And of course he also designed the “Second Portrait” that appeared on decimal coins and Sovereigns for a time.

 

https://www.royalmintmuseum.org.uk/journal/people/arnold-machin/

Was only messing 😆