VAT on silver

[ZEE123]

As an investor of precious metals, I like to buy both gold and silver to diversify my stack and hedge my money against inflation and currency devaluation.

However, I have recently been a bit more wary of buying silver in large quantities due to the VAT and premiums on the metal. This is why I personally don't buy silver that weighs more than 10 oz. For instance, if I had to choose between a 100oz silver bar and a 50g gold bar, I'd go with the gold bar as you don't pay VAT and premiums are generally lower on gold. Having said this, I have bought silver from TSF as it's cheaper due to being second hand and therefore VAT free.

Although I do find that there are some interesting pieces of silver out there. I particularly like the stacking pieces from Scottsdale Mint, which I have bought from Atkinsons Bullion. This has meant paying VAT.

I'm the sort of person who buys bullion I like, but I also factor in any premiums when investing. 

So this raises a couple of questions - Can silver still be a good investment even with VAT? Also, does the VAT put you off buying silver?

Edited January 25 by ZEE123

[HonestMoneyGoldSilver]

Yes, VAT puts me off buying silver. I flat refuse to pay it. If you drop 20% at the start then your investment has to take off just to break even. Thanks but no thanks

I have bought silver with VAT before - I bought a relatively large number of 2023 QEII Britannias from Baird Mint, which are still available at a reasonable price btw. Since then I've bought my silver on the secondary market mostly via TSF, some on eBay and some through private sales

The VAT question in the UK is an interesting one. If the government were to suspend VAT on silver tomorrow, what would happen to the price of physical silver in the UK? Well, it would most likely drop by 10-20%, which would make the UK extremely competitive globally but would mean everybody that currently held silver lost 10-20% of their investment

In a funny kind of way the VAT keeps the retail and secondary prices of silver in the UK higher than they otherwise would be. At times even with the VAT, the premiums charged in other markets (like USA) have equated roughly to the same price as UK prices. If we didn't have VAT it's likely premiums would rise a little to fill part of the gap, as happens in other markets

So can you buy silver and make it an "investment"?

Ignoring the technically correct stuff that silver has no yield therefore it's not an investment, I still believe that yes, purchasing silver can produce positive real returns, with returns increasing the longer you hold the metals. If you buy silver on the secondary market that is VAT free then your investment is somewhat protected as you could theoretically re-sell that silver at the same price or even at a profit if you wanted to invest the time in other websites like eBay or whatever

Buying silver is a bit of a gamble if you're not going to flip it. If you intend to hold for several years (3-5 years+) then silver can be a lucrative investment if the spot market and physical premiums move in the right direction. Lots of people made big money buying silver in the £9.50-£13/oz range over the last 7-8 years

Personally I like silver as I'm bullish on the long-term price. I also like semi-numismatic silver and older collectible bullion and numismatic coins. I think their price is going up even if spot goes down, so it's nice to have a balance of a couple of larger pieces (like 10oz or 100oz bars) along with majority CGT-exempt bullion (Britannias) plus some semi-numismatics and collectibles

[Bigmarc]

The only way it matters is if you weighed it in and got spot for it because give or take a quid it's the same price from a dealer, second hand on here or eBay. If they stopped vat on silver then those holding will loose out. 

[Gordy]

9 minutes ago, Bigmarc said:

The only way it matters is if you weighed it in and got spot for it because give or take a quid it's the same price from a dealer, second hand on here or eBay.

Cant remember the last time I saw a new brit go for £21.50 on ebay matey, quite a bit more than a 'give or take a quid' even adding 20% to that £21.50 is still less than what you can get a brit for on ebay, I dont buy brits off ebay btw, too expensive... but we all know you dont rate silver so it doesnt matter anyway

[Bigmarc]

1 hour ago, Gordy said:

Cant remember the last time I saw a new brit go for £21.50 on ebay matey, quite a bit more than a 'give or take a quid' even adding 20% to that £21.50 is still less than what you can get a brit for on ebay, I dont buy brits off ebay btw, too expensive... but we all know you dont rate silver so it doesnt matter anyway

Tavex today's price 

 

eBay sold today. 

 

First silver coin on trading feedback. 

 

The op asked about if vat puts you off buying and I answered. If you have a problem with me just block me please. 

As for the comment about not rating silver, all I have ever said is I don't buy 999 anymore, I love silver. 

 

[artalien]

3 hours ago, ZEE123 said:

Can silver still be a good investment even with VAT?

Surely on a finite planet it is going to increase with supply. Just joking I don't know.

 

2 hours ago, Gordy said:

Cant remember the last time I saw a new brit go for £21.50 on ebay matey,

Ebay is more expensive than TSF.

 

47 minutes ago, Bigmarc said:

I love silver

Me too 🙂

[Gordy]

1 hour ago, Bigmarc said:

Tavex today's price 

 

eBay sold today. 

 

First silver coin on trading feedback. 

 

The op asked about if vat puts you off buying and I answered. If you have a problem with me just block me please. 

As for the comment about not rating silver, all I have ever said is I don't buy 999 anymore, I love silver. 

 

exactly my point, add £5.00 to the Tavex price, makes it £29.90

The ebay example wasnt for a new one and it doesnt say if there is postage to pay, so the TSF price of £21.50 plus post of choice (lets gor for 1st signed for) £3.45, total   .... £24.95, you do the maths, certainly more than an odd quid in regards to %'s

[ZEE123]

I like collecting silver eagles as they're my personal favourite coin to stack. I particularly like American silver, hence me mentioning Scottsdale Mint, although I do have other stuff in my collection. I bought some of the Scottsdale Mint stacking rounds (one of each size) and I'm tempted to buy more of these, but I don't think I'll buy too many of these as they'll have VAT on them. I think I'll focus on stacking pre-owned eagles for a cheaper premium. Atkinsons are selling eagles for a good price, although I will want to buy at least 5 eagles as I would get a better price per coin. I would say around £25 is reasonable. Here's a link to show you what I mean:

https://atkinsonsbullion.com/silver/silver-coins/1oz-silver-coins/pre-owned-usa-eagle-1oz-silver-coins-mixed-dates-vat-free

I also like 10 oz silver bars. I recently bought a 10 oz Sunshine Mint silver bar from Atkinsons as it was one of the cheaper bars on they're website when including VAT. I think I'll wait and see if any 10 oz bars come up on TSF.

Edited January 25 by ZEE123

[Gordy]

3 minutes ago, ZEE123 said:

I like collecting silver eagles as they're my personal favourite coin to stack. I particularly like American silver, hence me mentioning Scottsdale Mint, although I do have other stuff in my collection. I bought some of the Scottsdale Mint stacking rounds (one of each size) and I'm tempted to buy more of these, but I don't think I'll buy too many of these as they'll have VAT on them. I think I'll focus on stacking pre-owned eagles for a cheaper premium. Atkinsons are selling eagles for a good price, although I will want to buy at least 5 eagles as I would get a better price per coin. I would say around £25 is reasonable. Here's a link to show you what I mean:

https://atkinsonsbullion.com/silver/silver-coins/1oz-silver-coins/pre-owned-usa-eagle-1oz-silver-coins-mixed-dates-vat-free

I also like 10 oz silver bars. I recently bought a 10 oz Sunshine Mint silver bar from Atkinsons as it was one of the cheaper bars on they're website when including VAT. I think I'll wait and see if any 10 oz bars come up on TSF.

not a bad price on the eagles as postage free too, be hard to find a cheaoer deal on here inc post

[ZEE123]

5 minutes ago, Gordy said:

not a bad price on the eagles as postage free too, be hard to find a cheaoer deal on here inc post

Yes good point. Assuming that one eagle is £25 on TSF, and let's say postage is £2.70 for 48 hours tracked, that's £27.70. So at £26.95 on Atkinsons, I'd say that's a pretty good deal.

[Tn21]

It's only the off occasion I buy silver from a dealer, now that your part of the forum you should be able to pick up silver pieces for less than the dealers.

Having said that the gap between silver prices with the dealers and silver prices on here is narrowing somewhat over the past 8 months. 

To give you a bit of context the 10oz Scottsdale stacker

£295 with the dealers 

£250ish here on the forum. 

 

With a few more purchases, tsf will quickly become your go to place to source your Ag + Au for the matter. 

 

[Bigmarc]

10 hours ago, Gordy said:

The ebay example wasnt for a new one and it doesnt say if there is postage to pay,

You are the only one talking about new ones "matey" the postage on the eBay on is £2.70. 

The point being is vat is irrelevant if you sell it on rather than weight it in.

10 hours ago, Gordy said:

not a bad price on the eagles as postage free too, be hard to find a cheaoer deal on here inc post

You are a trader on here, you buy in bulk and sell slightly less than what the dealers do, not really sure why you are disagreeing with me. and your topic should be on the cost of post. 

 

[MBTPSilver]

You could look at second hand silver, which is typically sold at lower premiums with the VAT-margin scheme. Atkinsons and Chards do them. BBP as well. It'll still be cheaper on here but if you prefer to buy from a dealer that's as good as you're going to get.

[SidS]

I will never understand why people buy new silver in the UK. VAT just kills it.

I don't think I've ever paid VAT on any of my silver purchases as it's all flatware, pre-1920, pre-47 or US junk silver. Basically all old stuff. I suppose antique shops and market traders may have included it in the prices. But the bulk of my silver has come from eBay over the past 20 years.

I would perhaps buy more on here, but I have zero interest in modern bullion such as Brits, Maples and US Eagles. I only really collect used, ex-circulating coinage.

That said, at the moment, the newest silver I currently own is a few second hand Maria Teresa thalers because I like the design - that's it for 'bullion' though really.

Edited January 26 by SidS

[Gordy]

1 hour ago, Bigmarc said:

You are the only one talking about new ones "matey" the postage on the eBay on is £2.70. 

The point being is vat is irrelevant if you sell it on rather than weight it in.

You are a trader on here, you buy in bulk and sell slightly less than what the dealers do, not really sure why you are disagreeing with me. and your topic should be on the cost of post. 

 

What are you getting all het up about Bigman? sorry bigmarc.... my bad

One, I am not a trader on here, i never sell silver in bulk on here, I buy it on here when its a good deal, the only thing I sell in bulk if you want to call it that is easels and caps

The only coins/bars I sell on here are generally to raise a quick quid to buy something else or to tidy up my collection

Facts make more sense than fiction MATE!!

If you get upset just because someone disagrees with you then may I suggest you take time out to reflect as you are the only one getting stressed over this and if you say you're not then MATE, you fib...

You asked me to block you, go ahead block me, you only bring negative comments in everything you write on here and nothing positive so enjoy a good life and live long boyo.....

No unicorns were harmed in the typing of this comment

[ccfcpaul]

😧 relax boys it's only a commercial.

As for the VAT. I say keep it. Makes finding those bargains all the more enjoyable. There's always profit to be had and it keeps eBay prices at a premium.

[Bigmarc]

1 hour ago, Gordy said:

What are you getting all het up about Bigman? sorry bigmarc.... my bad

One, I am not a trader on here, i never sell silver in bulk on here, I buy it on here when its a good deal, the only thing I sell in bulk if you want to call it that is easels and caps

The only coins/bars I sell on here are generally to raise a quick quid to buy something else or to tidy up my collection

Facts make more sense than fiction MATE!!

If you get upset just because someone disagrees with you then may I suggest you take time out to reflect as you are the only one getting stressed over this and if you say you're not then MATE, you fib...

You asked me to block you, go ahead block me, you only bring negative comments in everything you write on here and nothing positive so enjoy a good life and live long boyo.....

No unicorns were harmed in the typing of this comment

Facts. 

You and your buddies take pleasure out of trolling eBay sellers that you think are scammers (which is probably a crime in itself). It's not going to work here sunny Jim. 

I'm out 

Blocked. 

 

 

 

[HonestMoneyGoldSilver]

@Bigmarc and @Gordy -  I can't figure out what you two are arguing about, shipping costs? Please be clearer with your insults moving forward

Eagles I like except for the premiums. The proof and special editions can be really nice too. Premiums are currently lower than they've been for a while:

Silver Coins - US Eagle1oz Coin - Auronum

Above is £25/coin shipped if you spend £300. I bought some tubes from auronum on TSF, can't remember exact price but it was around £25/coin maybe slightly less

 

[ccfcpaul]

25 minutes ago, HonestMoneyGoldSilver said:

@Bigmarc and @Gordy -  I can't figure out what you two are arguing about, shipping costs? Please be clearer with your insults moving forward

Eagles I like except for the premiums. The proof and special editions can be really nice too. Premiums are currently lower than they've been for a while:

Silver Coins - US Eagle1oz Coin - Auronum

Above is £25/coin shipped if you spend £300. I bought some tubes from auronum on TSF, can't remember exact price but it was around £25/coin maybe slightly less

 

Think the disagreement was about how much of the difference in price it is between here and ebay and dealers. One stating theres a big one and one stating there isn't. 

Although it got needlessly touchy, so my summation is they've probably had a little spat previously and it spilled over into this conversation.

Nothing to do with me though, although I do love some handbag throwing

To play devils advocate, generally this place is cheaper than ebay (purpose of buying here and selling on ebay), although you can find some bargains and examples of cheap buys. I've bought a set of silver coins on ebay and sold for 50% profit on here, but its the exception rather than the rule.

[ArgentSmith]

I NEVER eat out because of VAT, I don't do anything much due to VAT... I refuse to pay it you see! 😁

Edited January 26 by ArgentSmith

[Petra]

3 minutes ago, ArgentSmith said:

I NEVER eat out because of VAT, I don't do anything much due to VAT... I refuse to pay it you see! 😁

😮🤔🤔🧐

[KitboyE17]

On 25/01/2024 at 23:12, Tn21 said:

It's only the off occasion I buy silver from a dealer, now that your part of the forum you should be able to pick up silver pieces for less than the dealers.

Having said that the gap between silver prices with the dealers and silver prices on here is narrowing somewhat over the past 8 months. 

To give you a bit of context the 10oz Scottsdale stacker

£295 with the dealers 

£250ish here on the forum. 

 

With a few more purchases, tsf will quickly become your go to place to source your Ag + Au for the matter. 

 

Totally agree and glad to see someone else is noticing this. I am finding sale items on TSF ever more increasing in price. Some sales are only a £1 or 2 lower than dealers incl. VAT. I now find myself comparing dealers prices to TSF and not the other way around! 

And let’s not forget who and why VAT increased from 17.5% …. back in 2011 we said it wouldn’t work and clearly we were right!

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-1679111/Tories-plan-to-raise-VAT-to-20.html 

Edited January 27 by KitboyE17

[bluemoon]

On 26/01/2024 at 09:22, SidS said:

I will never understand why people buy new silver in the UK. VAT just kills it.

Surely you'd get the 20% back when you sell it on places like this forum or eBay? Margins are almost the same as they are from dealers, even though it's not VAT.

You'd only lose it if VAT on silver is scrapped, which is unlikely.

[sixgun]

You need to be very careful about buying silver since Brexit and the UK being cut off from the low tax silver that used to be so plentiful.

As i am in the EU i can get 2024 Britannias like this - that's £20.87. Granted there is delivery but i get goldsilver.be to keep the silver in the client vault and send it when i have a good lot.

Personally i would not buy from UK dealers unless there was something i really liked in the margin scheme. I do buy silver off TSF. There are good deals to be had. There are good deals b/c i buy some of them - but often you have to be very quick.

If you are 'investing' then you should not be buying silver with VAT on it if you can avoid that and you can. You are investing in silver - not collecting a particular coin you can only find at a dealer's. Buy what you like but get a liking for pieces that represent good value and are easy to sell when the day comes you need to sell. If you don't do that and you have to sell in a hurry you may well come unstuck. However if you have items that were already in the aftermarket and were good value, it means someone else has experienced the potential loss and not you.

i used the phrase 'investing'. Remember you are not an investor, not a trader - you are a hobbyist, a collector. This may be important when it comes to selling b/c you are selling your private property, your chattels. You do not have to face any CGT issues then. Worth searching for chattels on the forum for the discussions. 

Try to avoid ebay - it is full of scam merchants. i try to avoid buying low numbers of coins - the postage per coin is too high. i do look to having the coins sent SD - right now i have a problem with a bar i bought. The Royal Mail had it the parcel had been delivered except the photo of the front door wasn't the right one - it wasn't a door anywhere near the delivery address. It turns out it was a house 1.5 miles away. The post office has apparently said they will get someone to go round to the address (which i do not know the identity of) and get the parcel back. It has all been tracked and it is all insured. Shlt happens sometimes.

[FriedrichVonHayek]

On 26/01/2024 at 09:22, SidS said:

I will never understand why people buy new silver in the UK. VAT just kills it.

I don't think I've ever paid VAT on any of my silver purchases as it's all flatware, pre-1920, pre-47 or US junk silver. Basically all old stuff. I suppose antique shops and market traders may have included it in the prices. But the bulk of my silver has come from eBay over the past 20 years.

I would perhaps buy more on here, but I have zero interest in modern bullion such as Brits, Maples and US Eagles. I only really collect used, ex-circulating coinage.

That said, at the moment, the newest silver I currently own is a few second hand Maria Teresa thalers because I like the design - that's it for 'bullion' though really.

I've got maybe 50 or 60 ounces of Silver Britannias but in general 90% of my Silver is scrap.

Once you know where to look, it can be bought for spot or under.

I've also started to use Bullionvault again.