1887 Sovereign oversize diameter?

[Hotdog]

The photos attached show a 1887 Jubilee sovereign, Sydney mint. I believe its a short tail, hooked J, first legend, DISH S1, Spink 3868A, Marsh 138 (though happy to be corrected).  

Weight is 7.947 grams. What's bothering me is the diameter which comes in at an average of 22.31mm after multiple measurements (avoiding the obvious dings on the edge. I did several SG tests and they averaged 18.39. Thickness appears normal, and the colour is similar to other Australian sovs that I have. 

It has a good ring/ping sound to it, though does not meet good on computer apps (precious coin tester, bullion test) for measurement of frequencies, though I wondered if this could be down to the diameter being over size? Marks on the coin would indicated that it was mounted at some time in a ring or similar. Anybody out there with the same year/mint/coin/measurement?

[dicker]

So this is for me an interesting coin.

- The pearls of the necklace are almost popping off of the coin! More so than others I have seen of the 1887 S variety.

- It is worn / polished - almost too shiny.

- It looks to have been very well struck, with a lot of detail that is not seen on others I have seen. Take a look at the Drake Sterling example below.  

- There is an odd dot just adrift of the dragons head

- But most interesting (odd) for me is the part I have attached as a pic.  Looks more detailed than even proofs of the same date and mint!  The detail I have put an arrow on I have not previously seen on a Sov in such defined detail - but is partially there on Double Sovs….just more clearly defined

- I am pretty sure yours is a Sov rather than a double as the necklace consists of 13 pearls, whereas the Double has 14.  Plus the more obvious difference in the number of jewels on the crown (6 on a Sov 7 on a Double)

- The horses tail looks a little different to a couple of reference examples (but I am being picky)

- What is the die alignment like - should be spot on - obv to rev when flipped.

- 1887 doubles are heavily counterfeited….not sure about Sovs

Anyone else have thoughts?

Best

Dicker

https://www.drakesterling.com/1887-sydney-gold-sovereign-pcgs-ms63-17240931

[dicker]

Sorry - I forgot to add that it looks like the rim is not of even thickness!

[Hotdog]

Thanks for your comments. Forgot to mention its a single sov.

The "odd dot just adrift from the dragons head" is part of the dragons "Frill" and maybe seen on the 1989 and 1890 Sydney Jubilee sovs. https://goldsovereignexpert.com/coins/151/1890-Gold-Sovereign-Victoria-Jubilee-Head-St-George-Sydney-Mint/

Die alignment looks good. The edge does look uneven in the photos I attached, though I think that's more down to the light coming in from my window to one side of the coin.

I'd still like to hear from anybody that may have one with the same oversize diameter. Will knock up a couple more photos tomorrow, with different lighting.

[LawrenceChard]

5 hours ago, Hotdog said:

The photos attached show a 1887 Jubilee sovereign, Sydney mint. I believe its a short tail, hooked J, first legend, DISH S1, Spink 3868A, Marsh 138 (though happy to be corrected).  

Weight is 7.947 grams. What's bothering me is the diameter which comes in at an average of 22.31mm after multiple measurements (avoiding the obvious dings on the edge. I did several SG tests and they averaged 18.39. Thickness appears normal, and the colour is similar to other Australian sovs that I have. 

It has a good ring/ping sound to it, though does not meet good on computer apps (precious coin tester, bullion test) for measurement of frequencies, though I wondered if this could be down to the diameter being over size? Marks on the coin would indicated that it was mounted at some time in a ring or similar. Anybody out there with the same year/mint/coin/measurement?

 

Quite a few people have recently reported concerns about the actual diameter of gold sovereigns, or half sovereigns.

It is not something that I have paid particularly close attention to in the past.  This is probably because when looking for fakes, there are much more important things to watch out for, and I have always been aware that there is some tolerance.

I commented recently that I should check what the stated tolerances are, but meanwhile I would not worry much about yours.

Interestingly, I just noticed that Wikipedia incorrectly states the diameter as 20.0 mm:

Sovereign (British coin)

Diameter	22.0 mm
Thickness	1.52 mm
Edge	Milled (some not intended for circulation have plain edge)
Composition	.917 gold, .083 copper or other metals

 

The Royal Mint do state it correctly:

The Sovereign 2020 Gold Bullion Coin

Specification	Value
Diameter	22.05mm

and so do Chards:

Sovereign Technical Specifications

Diameter (Millimeters)	22.05
Weight (Grams)	7.988
Alloy (Carats)	22
Fineness (millesimal)	916.6
Actual Gold Content (Grams)	7.322
Actual Gold Content (Troy Ounces)	0.2354

Although Wikipedia is often a good source of information, I often find errors there when it comes to coins.

😎

 

[dicker]

Still think this is an interesting coin.

if anyone  has a similar coin it would be great to see a high def image.  The ones I have seen are way less detailed.

 

[Hotdog]

Just taking another look at this coin. I've read that the London 1887 Jubilee had Silver added along with Copper so as to provide a softer material to allow greater detail to be enhanced. I can't find a reference to state that Silver was added to the Australian coins, though its noticeably more yellow in shade. 

Looked at The British Numismatic Journal 1984 pages 274-288, and Edgar Boem  And The Jubilee Coinage by GP Dyer/Mark Stocker, both cover the coins.  In anyone has a reference?

[Booky586]

The only reference I've seen so far is this one, in "The Jubilee Head Gold Sovereign" by David Iverson (https://issuu.com/jammdesign/docs/jubilee_brochure). Here it states on page 5 "the royal Mint in London decided that for technical reasons they should add an amount of silver to the alloy..."

Unfortunately it doesn't supply the original source.

Edit - I've just reread your post and realised my mistake, this doesn't refer to Australian coins! 

Edited February 17, 2023 by Booky586

[Hotdog]

Hi Booky, I recognise the extract above, but as you mention its only London. I'm fairly sure that the Oz 1887's have silver in, but don't have it verified. I'm guessing that there maybe many over Oz coins that have additional Silver as it meets the alloy requirement by law, but haven't seen any references as to what alloys were used in Australia as different from what may have been used in UK at the same period. Not an urgent thing to know, but just adds to the fund of knowledge re Sovs. I notice a reference by chards to XRF readings from different years that show the presences of Silver in various times. I wonder was the Silver there as an addition or not separated out in the refining process?

[sovereignsteve]

On 14/08/2022 at 17:03, dicker said:

The horses tail looks a little different to a couple of reference examples (but I am being picky)

The tail is an important detail to study when looking for fakes among the 1887 range. You will generally see abnormalities in this area in fakes.

On 14/08/2022 at 21:17, LawrenceChard said:

Quite a few people have recently reported concerns about the actual diameter of gold sovereigns, or half sovereigns.

The Australian sovereigns do seem to exhibit variation in this physical property. I can't understand why as the dies were made in England. Perhaps the Aussies had some leeway in the production/procurement of the outer bands?

I tend to check for diameter the old fashioned way, using a standard slit such as was used on the Victorian sovereign balances. I would imagine this would have a larger tolerance than a micrometer but I have found many Aussie sovereigns that fail this test.

[Hotdog]

Do any fake sovereigns ever meet a ping test with Bullion Test app, say for example the Lebanese coins made by Mr. Chaloub/Harry Stock which apparently were

22 carat? A couple of photos of duds that didn't need to be pinged. Local jeweller bought them for scrap.  

 

[Simonz]

Closest I have is an 1887 Melbourne second legend DISH.M8. Pearls are similar, dots in neck , tail and dragon all look similar too. Weight is 7.99g diameter varied from 22.119 to 22.037 (don't usually use the micrometer but my son has 'borrowed' my calipers!).

[Booky586]

On 14/08/2022 at 15:46, Hotdog said:

What's bothering me is the diameter which comes in at an average of 22.31mm after multiple measurements

On 14/08/2022 at 15:46, Hotdog said:

Anybody out there with the same year/mint/coin/measurement?

Hi Hotdog, apologies for raising an old post so hope it's still relevant. I have an identical 1887S Sovereign which, like yours, has an oversize diameter of 22.43mm (link to photos below). I also have a Sydney half sovereign where the diameter measures at 19.7mm compared to the specification of 19.3mm, 0.4mm oversize.  Reading other comments and posts on Sydney mint sovereigns around this period it seems it's not unusual to find them larger than spec.

On 17/02/2023 at 11:53, Hotdog said:

I've read that the London 1887 Jubilee had Silver added along with Copper so as to provide a softer material to allow greater detail to be enhanced. I can't find a reference to state that Silver was added to the Australian coins, though its noticeably more yellow in shade. 

On comparison between my 1887 London and Sydney mint the London coin has the greater yellow appearance, the Sydney coin has a more normal colour, but that's just based on the 2 coins in hand. 

 

[Silverlocks]

14 minutes ago, Booky586 said:

Hi Hotdog, apologies for raising an old post so hope it's still relevant. I have an identical 1887S Sovereign which, like yours, has an oversize diameter of 22.43mm (link to photos below). I also have a Sydney half sovereign where the diameter measures at 19.7mm compared to the specification of 19.3mm, 0.4mm oversize.  Reading other comments and posts on Sydney mint sovereigns around this period it seems it's not unusual to find them larger than spec.

 

I've got some Air-Tites A22 caps that will fit some sovs comfortably, some a bit tight (Gillicks are prone to this), and I've had a few Australian sovs (Eds mainly) that flat out won't fit into them at all.  I think Australian sovs were often a bit wider than spec for some reason.

[Hotdog]

Thanks for the various feedbacks