Hotdog

Thanks for the various feedbacks

attached photograph shows a change machine where full or half sovereigns could be entered to receive 20 or 10 shillings. Apparently they were used in large shops; though I don't know how the Sovereigns would have been verified for fakes.

Thanks gents for the above comments

I've two full proof sovereigns a 1991 & 1992 with the original Royal Mint plastic sealed wrapper around the boxed coins. The certificates are visible inside. If I was selling, would they be more valuable with the wrapper in place i.e. indicating that the coins have never been handled, or would prospective buyers need to see photos of the coins ??

I never did get my head around what the premiums would have been. What mark-up was the Lebanese forger making on coins that were nigh on 22carat? I could see that there could be a fairly large mark-up if sending coins from the Gulf to India, which has always had a large Gold import tax, but would that same premium exist in the UK at the same time?

Do any fake sovereigns ever meet a ping test with Bullion Test app, say for example the Lebanese coins made by Mr. Chaloub/Harry Stock which apparently were 22 carat? A couple of photos of duds that didn't need to be pinged. Local jeweller bought them for scrap.

Hi Booky, I recognise the extract above, but as you mention its only London. I'm fairly sure that the Oz 1887's have silver in, but don't have it verified. I'm guessing that there maybe many over Oz coins that have additional Silver as it meets the alloy requirement by law, but haven't seen any references as to what alloys were used in Australia as different from what may have been used in UK at the same period. Not an urgent thing to know, but just adds to the fund of knowledge re Sovs. I notice a reference by chards to XRF readings from different years that show the presences of Silver in various times. I wonder was the Silver there as an addition or not separated out in the refining process?

Just taking another look at this coin. I've read that the London 1887 Jubilee had Silver added along with Copper so as to provide a softer material to allow greater detail to be enhanced. I can't find a reference to state that Silver was added to the Australian coins, though its noticeably more yellow in shade. Looked at The British Numismatic Journal 1984 pages 274-288, and Edgar Boem And The Jubilee Coinage by GP Dyer/Mark Stocker, both cover the coins. In anyone has a reference?

Another good read that I just finished is "The Art Of Making Money" the storey of a master counterfeiter by Jason Kersten, first printed in 2009. Its set in the USA and covers the life storey of Art Williams, born 1972. "His notoriety came as being the first to break all the security features within the 1996-issued $100 bill"

An interesting read is "Counterfeiter" The Story of a British Master Forger. Its the story of Charles Black (born Lewisham 1928) co-written by Michael Horsnell in 1989. He mentions that one of his associates made a fantastic living from sovereigns made in Switzerland from Lebanese dies (which reputedly contained a high amount of gold) and sold them at a high premium in London to well known concerns in the 60s.

Were other Gold coins from non UK also experiencing the same high premiums in the 1960s or was it just sovereigns?

Does anybody know what the premiums have been on Gold Sovereigns in past years. The following is an extract from another site "in the 1960's there was a premium of 40% on trading gold sovereigns". What premiums would have been paid in past decades?

Just re reading "The Royal Mint, its working, conduct, and operations, fully and practically explained by George Fredrick Ansell" published 1870.... Ansell asked how far his authority extended. He was advised that "If you order the men to dance a hornpipe on the table, they shall do it." I guess work practices would prevent this now.

Thanks for your comments. Forgot to mention its a single sov. The "odd dot just adrift from the dragons head" is part of the dragons "Frill" and maybe seen on the 1989 and 1890 Sydney Jubilee sovs. https://goldsovereignexpert.com/coins/151/1890-Gold-Sovereign-Victoria-Jubilee-Head-St-George-Sydney-Mint/ Die alignment looks good. The edge does look uneven in the photos I attached, though I think that's more down to the light coming in from my window to one side of the coin. I'd still like to hear from anybody that may have one with the same oversize diameter. Will knock up a couple more photos tomorrow, with different lighting.

The photos attached show a 1887 Jubilee sovereign, Sydney mint. I believe its a short tail, hooked J, first legend, DISH S1, Spink 3868A, Marsh 138 (though happy to be corrected). Weight is 7.947 grams. What's bothering me is the diameter which comes in at an average of 22.31mm after multiple measurements (avoiding the obvious dings on the edge. I did several SG tests and they averaged 18.39. Thickness appears normal, and the colour is similar to other Australian sovs that I have. It has a good ring/ping sound to it, though does not meet good on computer apps (precious coin tester, bullion test) for measurement of frequencies, though I wondered if this could be down to the diameter being over size? Marks on the coin would indicated that it was mounted at some time in a ring or similar. Anybody out there with the same year/mint/coin/measurement?

tails info

Possibly, British travellers if they were emigrating, would be more likely to have their wealth in gold coins for ease of use/exchange in the new world. Returning Americans would possibly have spent theirs in Europe and would have easy access to more in their home country.

https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007/BF03214762.pdf Interesting article on "Origin and Effects of Impurities in High Purity Gold"

Chards have posted this before on their web site: - https://www.chards.co.uk/blog/analysis-of-alloy-content-of-gold-sovereigns/180

I found some answers to my question above at: - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mint-made_errors#Overdates_and_overmintmarks

How are coins with for e.g. "F" over an inverted "A" produced or corrected? Would a batch of coins with inverted "A"s be produced in error and then re stamped with a corrected die? If so how would the original faulty coins be aligned prior to re-stamping? Are they manually corrected with and individual single letter punch, or some other process?

Unless my eyes are acting up, there is also a difference in the slight swirl pattern in the field area in way of the Queen's head, in the left hand coin the swirl action is clockwise, and the right hand coin the pattern swirl is anti-clockwise.

Can anyone advise what the physical process was to over stamp dates or letters? Were they done manually or by machine? One number or letter at a time, with an individual punch??

correction....parliament in 1811

My view....... is that the 1816 coinage act states that gold coins should meet the standards of existing gold coins on a pro rata basis i.e. the Gold Guinea which was in existence already and had a clearly defined purity (which was to become the same standard for Sovereigns, but at a pro rata value/size of 20 shillings as opposed to the Guinea of 21 shillings. As far as I've read there is no other definition of the Sovereign in the 1860 coinage act, but it follows on in 20/21 proportional value to the existing Gold Guinea with the same Gold/Alloy mixture. My view again is that the act states for the mint to get on and make such gold coins as required, but doesn't define dimensional attributes. I'm guessing that the mint then came up with a gold alloy coin(same alloy ratio as the Guinea as required by the 1816 act) with a value of 20 shillings (which was the value being discussed in parliament in 2011). I'm "guessing" again that the mint decided on the physical dimensions/design of the sovereign following the only other requirement by law that was to have have the 11 parts gold and 1 part alloy. Only my interpretation, and happy to be corrected.