Bying PM's within a business

[Stacktastic]

I am in entertainment, but I am self empolyed & surely can run several businesses along side one another cant I? 
I wondered about buying goldandsilver in the business to trade as a dealer? 

I dont legally have to sell the inventory do I so would this not offset tax & be legal
as buying low & selling high is part of this business isnt it and that can take a long time. 
I bet there is stock in the major bullion dealer that if they dsold would be a loss so are waiting?? 

Just asking as I had a huge tax bill this year and would not mind doing some investing in PM's to sell. 
its looking like a lovely time buy silver and maybe gold at some point isnt it. 

Whats the crack with LTD companies and also VAT registered ones. too? 

 

[HerefordBullyun]

If you are Ltd company you only pay VAT over certain amount of earnings - BUT it depends on what game you are in. I was a one man band in IT contracting. So I am not sure how it works in the PMs world. given if you are selling silver, but if think the back door is if you are selling silver 2nd hand silver no VAT to pay I believe. PS I am not a tax or financial advisor lol

[modofantasma]

One for the accountant that

[HerefordBullyun]

3 minutes ago, modofantasma said:

One for the accountant that

and a good one to boot!

[SilverDrum]

Definitely speak to your accountant. I think from the conversation i had with mine, it was depending on if you are planning to trade as a bullion dealer, or just have your business invest into PM's. Tax codes and being tax efficient will be the advice to be sure of. 

My accountant is happy for my property investment business to buy and hold PM's as part of the company assets.  

[HerefordBullyun]

7 minutes ago, SilverDrum said:

Definitely speak to your accountant. I think from the conversation i had with mine, it was depending on if you are planning to trade as a bullion dealer, or just have your business invest into PM's. Tax codes and being tax efficient will be the advice to be sure of. 

My accountant is happy for my property investment business to buy and hold PM's as part of the company assets.  

PS This man loaded. I work for him. I do all his dodgy IT work offshore in somalia. He got fingers in pies, and not just hairy ones....

[SilverDrum]

38 minutes ago, HerefordBullyun said:

PS This man loaded. I work for him. I do all his dodgy IT work offshore in somalia. He got fingers in pies, and not just hairy ones....

Can't i make a serious post on this place anymore? 🤣

[HerefordBullyun]

1 minute ago, SilverDrum said:

Can't i make a serious post on this place anymore? 🤣

that is fcking rich from you!

[SilverDrum]

19 minutes ago, HerefordBullyun said:

that is fcking rich from you!

Touché.

[HerefordBullyun]

Just now, SilverDrum said:

Touché.

but if you need a tea boy im yer man 

[James32]

2 hours ago, SilverDrum said:

Definitely speak to your accountant. I think from the conversation i had with mine, it was depending on if you are planning to trade as a bullion dealer, or just have your business invest into PM's. Tax codes and being tax efficient will be the advice to be sure of. 

My accountant is happy for my property investment business to buy and hold PM's as part of the company assets.  

Such a Creative play on words my good man!  All I heard was...you have 1 kilo of vat free silver hidden in your rental caravan 😳

[SilverDrum]

6 minutes ago, James32 said:

Such a Creative play on words my good man!  All I heard was...you have 1 kilo of vat free silver hidden in your rental caravan 😳

Who gave you a box of crayons after midnight. 

[James32]

Just now, SilverDrum said:

Who gave you a box of crayons after midnight. 

Sharron has me up to high dough

[Bigmarc]

5 hours ago, Stacktastic said:

I am in entertainment, but I am self empolyed & surely can run several businesses along side one another cant I? 
I wondered about buying goldandsilver in the business to trade as a dealer? 

I dont legally have to sell the inventory do I so would this not offset tax & be legal
as buying low & selling high is part of this business isnt it and that can take a long time. 
I bet there is stock in the major bullion dealer that if they dsold would be a loss so are waiting?? 

Just asking as I had a huge tax bill this year and would not mind doing some investing in PM's to sell. 
its looking like a lovely time buy silver and maybe gold at some point isnt it. 

Whats the crack with LTD companies and also VAT registered ones. too? 

 

Good subject.

I recently have been considering the same thing (Ish). I was thinking of starting up a jewelry business for Etsy, engraving sterling silver pendants and that kind of thing. Other than having a vast amount of PM's in stock I wondered on what happens to the scrap? How is it logged as I would pass vat on to the customer for a finished product but a unsalable one? Not sure. What about returns? Would it be classed as a loss? 

My mindset is probably similar to yours about stacking metals without personal risk. 

[Foster88]

1 hour ago, Bigmarc said:

Good subject.

I recently have been considering the same thing (Ish). I was thinking of starting up a jewelry business for Etsy, engraving sterling silver pendants and that kind of thing. Other than having a vast amount of PM's in stock I wondered on what happens to the scrap? How is it logged as I would pass vat on to the customer for a finished product but a unsalable one? Not sure. What about returns? Would it be classed as a loss? 

My mindset is probably similar to yours about stacking metals without personal risk. 

The greater Vat always lies with the ‘end user’ or the ‘consumer’.

Say as an example you bought silver  at £1 per gram or £100 worth of silver was 100g or £1 a gram from ‘X’ seller, but you sold it for double that at £2 per gram.

If you were charging Vat you’d be charging 20% to the ‘consumer’ or ‘end user’ minus the Vat you’d already paid out for the raw materials.

Returns wouldn’t be classed as a loss but the delivery cost might be. As a seller, by law, you have to cover the return cost even in the buyer changes their mind. Distance selling laws are 14 days from receiving the order/goods.

The above is just an easier explanation for arguments sake.

Hope this helps but don’t let it deter you.

[dicker]

I looked into this but decided it was not worth it.  
 

Definitely worth an account and discussion…..

[Stacktastic]

 

8 hours ago, Bigmarc said:

Good subject.

I recently have been considering the same thing (Ish). I was thinking of starting up a jewelry business for Etsy, engraving sterling silver pendants and that kind of thing. Other than having a vast amount of PM's in stock I wondered on what happens to the scrap? How is it logged as I would pass vat on to the customer for a finished product but a unsalable one? Not sure. What about returns? Would it be classed as a loss? 

My mindset is probably similar to yours about stacking metals without personal risk. 

I dont see why not really, because I can run it through my expenses and not pay so much tax. I bet if I was investigated it would be a bit of a red flag, but if I set up a business for it etc. (website and stuff) is it illegal to buy a load of silver when it goes low and sit on it indefinitely. You always notice dealers stop selling if gold takes a dive as they would sell at a loss with regards to thier recent inventory. Over time this changes a they buy new stock at the lower rate. Or just increase the premiums straight away  

The jewellery business is a good idea as you can hold stock & hide the waste material as sold to the customer. 

I am not VAT registered or LTD, but owning PM's as a LTD company asset could make them safer in the event of confiscation or even divorce settlement?? Anyone know anything about this? Im looking at reducing my tax this year & this seems like a legal way to achieve it, especially if I do start trading them - which I intend to so anyway with my silver if it goes high enough. 

[HerefordBullyun]

you would have to add your stack as company assets  as a LTD company and depends how many directors you have on your board> i know jeremy vine had his son on his board (a child) and used him for tax loophole expenses.

I am not a tax advisor mind....

[Pete]

You can establish a business as a sole trader, a limited liability partnership or a limited company.
There are pros and cons to each.
If a business is VAT registered it must charge VAT on sales and can claim input relief on purchases.
All businesses can offset lots of expenses against their profits and good record keeping is highly desirable.
Selling PMs as a business will require a good website ( not necessarily cheap ) making it easy to buy and pay.
You will have to consider how you will order, store ( protect as well from theft ) and ship your inventory.
Forget taking a day off for a break and as soon as you employ any help, can you trust them when a stock check doesn't balance ?

If you have a substantial amount of inventory and prices fall would you hold your inventory and not sell ?
Many of us stackers are sitting on mountains of silver bought 10 or more years ago and if we sold today we would still not recover our costs.

I think trading can be fun as a hobby or part-time business to make a few bob and will definitely keep you busy but when you perhaps work out your hourly income it might not look so great.

Easy when you buy cheap and sell high but predicting the peaks and troughs is no different to betting red or black on roulette.

[LemmyMcGregor]

Talk to an accountant, even without precious metals going from Sole Trader to LTD is well worth once you get going, the tax savings that you can make are ridicolous.

[Stacktastic]

5 hours ago, LemmyMcGregor said:

Talk to an accountant, even without precious metals going from Sole Trader to LTD is well worth once you get going, the tax savings that you can make are ridicolous.

Not if they lock us down again - I almost went ltd IN Jan 2020 and I had a very definite message from intuition - DONT DO IT!  
It told me to go through my accounts and cancel or change the outgoings, best advice I have ever had!!! 
I shall transition I think as this situation starts to escalate, but If I can stay SE & half my tax with PM's as a company purchase legally then great. 

[272]

 

I'm not an accountant either but I did research investing surplus cash / retained profits in my company. 

Unless you were explicitly setting up as a dealer / jewellery maker, if PMs were bought as a business investment and were deemed substantial compared to your actual trading activity. then you might be considered a closed investment company which will be subject to the full 25% corporation tax from 2023 (as opposed to 19% if your profits are less than £50K pa)  and would also exclude you from entrepreneurs relief if you decided to sell the company.

Buying PMs as a corporate investment  wouldn't exempt you from paying corporation tax on the surplus cash used to purchase the PMs as effectively these would be retained profits (i.e. as opposed to a business expense you can offset against corporation tax). If the PMs are bought as legal UK tender then in theory its CGT exempt  when the company sells (assuming the price has risen), but you'd then still need to plan when to most efficiently sell  the assets and the tax implications of personally extracting it as pension contributions, dividends or wages etc. I suppose deferring disposal to a year where your expenses were greater / conventional profits smaller might be useful (assuming your business is under the micro-entity threshold to qualify for only paying tax when investments are realised)?