1911 Gold Sovereigns New Variety and Different Edge Serration Count - London and Perth Mints

[LawrenceChard]

I recently checked a small number of 1911 sovereigns which @ChardsCoinandBullionDealer were buying in.

The owner / vendor had labelled some of them as "Hollow Neck", and some as "Rounded Neck". I see all sorts of weird descriptions about coins, but I thought it sensible to take a closer look; I still have plenty to learn.

Sure enough, among the half dozen London Mint coins, there was a distinct difference in the engraving of the neck.

I pondered the possibility that the difference may have been due to weak striking, but discounted that, and believe that there are in fact distinct differences between the two types.

Here are photos:

As can be clearly seen, the upper coin has a distinct hollow running downwards near the back of the neck, while the lower coin is almost rounded in the same area.

Both reverses appear to be slightly weakly struck, which is quite common.

As you can see, we also did a serration count, but both are the same - 110 (see later).

Above is a full size photo of the hollow neck variety.

While this (above) one has a rounded neck.

These variations do not appear to be listed in Spink or Marsh.

As it happens, there was also a 1911 Perth Mint sovereign in the lot, and we also did an edge serration count, with a surprising result:

This 1911-P has 124 serrations!

It looks like we will be doing more serration counts in the near future.

It is interesting and exciting to make discoveries which have been hiding in full view under people's noses for more than a century.

😎

 

Edited May 9, 2022 by LawrenceChard

[MJCOIN]

Thank you Lawrence.  Every day is a school day.

[dicker]

Thank you @LawrenceChard

Either here or elsewhere I have seen an “expert” comment that Sovereign research has all been done / nothing else left to find.  Nice discoveries like this highlight why Sovereigns are such a wonderful coin to collect and reward those with attention to detail.

Best

Dicker

[LawrenceChard]

1 minute ago, dicker said:

Thank you @LawrenceChard

Either here or elsewhere I have seen an “expert” comment that Sovereign research has all been done / nothing else left to find.

Which idiot said that?

😎

[dicker]

I will try and find the quote. I was stunned.

You don’t have to look at many Shields (in particular) to find interesting differences / errors or indeed similarities in errors.

 

 

[CollectForFun]

There's apparently some info on this on the internet, e.g. something is here:

Quote

Notes on George V issues: All five pound and two pound pieces and proof sovereigns and proof half-sovereigns are 'full neck' and from single die-sinkings. Currency pieces for 1911 are both 'full neck' and 'shallow neck', but unlike the silver issues, all share the same legend and border beading. The 'full neck has a more raised portion above the initial 'M', whilst the shallow neck' almost touches the top of the 'M'. From 1912, onwards the 'full neck' dies appear to be almost exclusively used throughout the series for both London and branch mints until 1928, but, with some exceptions - a 1912 'P' has been noted with 'shallow neck'. Further examination is required to consolidate this series) 

And neck variaties are apparently present also on other coins of that year...

Edited April 22, 2022 by CollectForFun

[LawrenceChard]

43 minutes ago, CollectForFun said:

There's apparently some info on this on the internet, e.g. something is here:

And neck variaties are apparently present also on other coins of that year...

Thanks for noticing, and linking that.

I presume when the cataloguer says:

 'full neck' and 'shallow neck'

that he means the truncation of the neck.

[LawrenceChard]

3 hours ago, MJCOIN said:

Thank you Lawrence.  Every day is a school day.

I'd better get to bed, I don't want to be late for assembly in the morning!

😎

[Oddjob]

There'd be a few sov collectors out up until today thinking their 1911 sov collection was complete....now there'll have to go and fine a few more variations for the set. 😫

[Bruce06]

In 1915, 16 penny, there are recessed ear variety, don't know if have the same in sovereign.

[CollectForFun]

7 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

Thanks for noticing, and linking that.

I presume when the cataloguer says:

 'full neck' and 'shallow neck'

that he means the truncation of the neck.

I was also wondering what they meant. Based on your detailed photos it seems that the variety in the truncation of the neck which they describe according to the distance of its upper edge from the M in the initials is consistent with the variety in the hollowness or roundness of the neck itself as described by you. I.e. their "full neck" detail can be seen on your "rounded neck" variety, and their "shallow neck" detail can be seen on your "hollow neck" variety.

So just taking into account these two coin specimens one would assume that fullness of the neck itself goes hand in hand with fullness of the truncation of the neck. I.e. that they are just two different details on the same variety. But maybe if you have more specimens at your disposal you could check if this assumption is valid?

Edited April 23, 2022 by CollectForFun

[LawrenceChard]

3 hours ago, CollectForFun said:

I was also wondering what they meant. Based on your detailed photos it seems that the variety in the truncation of the neck which they describe according to the distance of its upper edge from the M in the initials is consistent with the variety in the hollowness or roundness of the neck itself as described by you. I.e. their "full neck" detail can be seen on your "rounded neck" variety, and their "shallow neck" detail can be seen on your "hollow neck" variety.

So just taking into account these two coin specimens one would assume that fullness of the neck itself goes hand in hand with fullness of the truncation of the neck. I.e. that they are just two different details on the same variety. But maybe if you have more specimens at your disposal you could check if this assumption is valid?

Although tht auction house did provide reasonably good information, I think its main purpose was to help sell the coin it was attached to, and certainly it was not written with complete clarity.

I do think the assumption is valid, but will be checking.

 

[Britannia47]

Well, I never knew about the so called 'hollow' neck! 😠 It doesn't seem to exist as a variant but is certainly known about.  Comparing a Canadian 1911 sovereign with a London minted 1912.  I could clearly see the difference. between Bertram Mackennal's 1911  and the 1912 obverse. Subsequent years have the rounded neck images I believe.  The 'hollow' neck is more of a shallow depression however.   Re. the bronze coinage my 1911 1/2d  has the same appearance, as does the farthing and the 1 penny, but not the silver coinage! So it looks like the 1911 obverse was a 'one-off' for that year - changed for technical reasons? 

It was not easy to photo, getting the light correct, but looking closely...... 

1911 on the left.

[SidS]

God help us all if you start counting the edge serrations on the 1887s... There's numerous varieties of the JEBs as it is on these, the serrations will no doubt be all over the place too.

Let me know when you've counted the 1841 and 1819 edge serration varieties. 😁

[LawrenceChard]

On 22/04/2022 at 18:42, LawrenceChard said:

I recently checked a small number of 1911 sovereigns which @ChardsCoinandBullionDealer were buying in.

The owner / vendor had labelled some of them as "Hollow Neck", and some as "Rounded Neck". I see all sorts of weird descriptions about coins, but I thought it sensible to take a closer look; I still have plenty to learn.

Sure enough, among the half dozen London Mint coins, there was a distinct difference in the engraving of the neck.

I pondered the possibility that the difference may have been due to weak striking, but discounted that, and believe that there are in fact distinct differences between the two types.

As can be clearly seen, the upper coin has a distinct hollow running downwards near the back of the neck, while the lower coin is almost rounded in the same area.

Both reverses appear to be slightly weakly struck, which is quite common.

These variations do not appear to be listed in Spink or Marsh.

As it happens, there was also a 1911 Perth Mint sovereign in the lot, and we also did an edge serration count, with a surprising result:

This 1911-P has 124 serrations!

It looks like we will be doing more serration counts in the near future.

It is interesting and exciting to make discoveries which have been hiding in full view under people's noses for more than a century.

😎

 

... and here is a 1911-S Sydney Mint sovereign:

Anybody want to guess before you look?

120 Serrations on a 1911-S sovereign.

[LawrenceChard]

On 23/04/2022 at 11:19, Britannia47 said:

Well, I never knew about the so called 'hollow' neck! 😠 It doesn't seem to exist as a variant but is certainly known about.  Comparing a Canadian 1911 sovereign with a London minted 1912.  I could clearly see the difference. between Bertram Mackennal's 1911  and the 1912 obverse. Subsequent years have the rounded neck images I believe.  The 'hollow' neck is more of a shallow depression however.   Re. the bronze coinage my 1911 1/2d  has the same appearance, as does the farthing and the 1 penny, but not the silver coinage! So it looks like the 1911 obverse was a 'one-off' for that year - changed for technical reasons? 

It was not easy to photo, getting the light correct, but looking closely...... 

1911 on the left.

You did well to get decent photos.

If you think 1911 was a one-off for "hollow necks", think again:

This was a 1912-P Perth Mint hollow neck, obverse above, and:

Reverse of 1912-P Perth Mint hollow neck sovereign, with 124 serrations.

This is fun!

😎