Tax on Silver when Entering the UK?

[sixgun]

20 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

Read on a little further:

The said silver coin shall be legal tender for payment of any amount in any part of Our United Kingdom. 

Well i stand corrected - these coins are on a par with the gold sovereign. Interesting they are more money that the copper and silver coloured coins in general circulation - you can settle payments of any amount. 

If i go to the bank and get a fresh roll of 50p's do they charge VAT on them? No of course not. You don't charge VAT on cash money, don't be silly.
So why this cash money they 'pretend' is legal tender.
 
Once upon a time before the Empire was bankrupted by World War I the money was real money - it was gold and silver. 
The Royal Mint still makes gold and silver discs they call legal tender - but you try to use them like legal tender and expect them to be treated like legal tender and you will discover the authorities will refuse. They only want you to treat the counterfeit money the Mint makes as real, not the real stuff.

Perhaps i should claim my company won't pay me what is due me and i sue it. Go to court - win the case, i mean no defence would be offered - it could be a small claims job. Then have the court make an order the company must pay me in coin of the Realm. i want cash money, not cheques or something electronic. The company pays me in coin of the Realm as per the court order. £1 sovereigns will do nicely thanks. The company was only doing what the court ordered.

[HillWalkerDundee]

VAT on UK silver coinage has always struck me as being an anomaly. Now I wonder if it is even legal to charge VAT on legal tender. Any no win, no fee lawyers in the house?

Edited November 4, 2021 by HillWalkerDundee

[LawrenceChard]

3 hours ago, sixgun said:

Well i stand corrected - these coins are on a par with the gold sovereign. Interesting they are more money that the copper and silver coloured coins in general circulation - you can settle payments of any amount. 

If i go to the bank and get a fresh roll of 50p's do they charge VAT on them? No of course not. You don't charge VAT on cash money, don't be silly.
So why this cash money they 'pretend' is legal tender.
 
Once upon a time before the Empire was bankrupted by World War I the money was real money - it was gold and silver. 
The Royal Mint still makes gold and silver discs they call legal tender - but you try to use them like legal tender and expect them to be treated like legal tender and you will discover the authorities will refuse. They only want you to treat the counterfeit money the Mint makes as real, not the real stuff.

Perhaps i should claim my company won't pay me what is due me and i sue it. Go to court - win the case, i mean no defence would be offered - it could be a small claims job. Then have the court make an order the company must pay me in coin of the Realm. i want cash money, not cheques or something electronic. The company pays me in coin of the Realm as per the court order. £1 sovereigns will do nicely thanks. The company was only doing what the court ordered.

You're preaching to the converted.

"If i go to the bank and get a fresh roll of 50p's do they charge VAT on them? No of course not."

Correct, but I am sure that if @ChardsCoinandBullionDealer sell you a fifty pence for 50p, then HMRC might expect to levy VAT on it.

As to your company paying you in gold sovereigns at face value, I seem to recall someone tried that about 40 or 50 years ago, that there may have been a test case. You might try a search for it. I have been trying some searches for various VAT cases, rules, and changes, without great success. Once I find the sources I am looking for, I will publish more.

 

[sixgun]

31 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

As to your company paying you in gold sovereigns at face value, I seem to recall someone tried that about 40 or 50 years ago, that there may have been a test case. You might try a search for it. I have been trying some searches for various VAT cases, rules, and changes, without great success. Once I find the sources I am looking for, I will publish more.

 

i have a very vague memory of something where this was attempted.
This gold bullion scheme sprang to mind:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/aug/07/payment-in-gold-bullion-banned-under-new-law-to-combat-tax-evasion
Payment in gold bullion banned under new law to combat tax evasion
This wasn't as straightforward as simply using gold and silver coins of the realm as intended. There was more shenanigans than that going on. Unsurprisingly the authorities didn't like it. It was held it was a tax evasion scheme. 

Perhaps if there were an offshore company which was none of HMRC's business. Said company bought sovereigns - which HMRC would not know about nor would they be able to find out about in suitable circumstances. The company then paid the UK tax resident employee / self contractor. The payment was in Sterling and in legal tender coins at face value. Be quite up front about this - we paid in cash - we paid part in cash - be truthful, well sort of. What could be wrong with that. No need to declare such coins for CGT purposes of course since they are UK legal tender. For a pure UK company / employee situation it would become apparent there was something going on when company funds were being spent on sovereigns and then there were being paid out. HMRC would be onto this but a suitable offshore entity would be significantly less detectable.  

Edited November 4, 2021 by sixgun

[Junior]

A fantastic question to ponder. I think you should never cheat the system, but walking the line of knowing and being told is a self journey.

That being said, the Canadian 1 gram maple has a 50 cent face value. You can travel with a s**t ton of those before reaching the 10,000 limit!

[GoldDiggerDave]

On 04/11/2021 at 15:47, LawrenceChard said:

From Wikipedia: "Throughout the United Kingdom, coins valued 1 pound, 2 pounds, and 5 pounds sterling are legal tender in unlimited amounts."

I've really enjoyed this thread guys some interesting views and arguments, I saw the definition a while back regarding 1,2, and 5 pound coins what Lawrence pointed out and instantly thought of Sovereigns being used for settlement of debt.

A mate of mine did some work for me bit of roofing and as a mate he did not want to take any payment from me,  he's a fellow coin collector/stacker, so I said I'll give you a fiver for your troubles and handed him a 2oz silver Queens beast (one I know he did not have), he was chuffed to nuts.  Later that night when we are having a beer and discussing could we actually be paid in silver and gold at face value to keep you under the minimum tax threshold?

Sovereigns would be a perfect for this as it has a face value of £1 so unlimited and  UK CGT free.  I'm no way suggesting any wrong doing just having an open debt and some fun on what constitutes legal tender.

Is a pound it's face value or intrinsic value?  it could be anywhere between 20p ish to £340 depending on what coin and value characteristics you chose. 

So the hypercritical  question is could you be paid in silver and gold at face value to keep you under the income tax thresholds?   

Cheers

Dave

 

 

 

 

[Centauri167]

I read this topic and was intrigued by it.

My question is: " Did anybody ever questioned official why there is vat on a legal coin ? And why the dealers in the UK don't join and go to court against this ?" 

[HerefordBullyun]

13 minutes ago, Centauri167 said:

I read this topic and was intrigued by it.

My question is: " Did anybody ever questioned official why there is vat on a legal coin ? And why the dealers in the UK don't join and go to court against this ?" 

Suing the crown is difficult as the Taxman is more a powerful entity and has more pull than the police and the armed forces in UK, whom again serve under the crown. I think we can go back to the days when us peaseants were taxed to death from Henry the VIII days to pay for all his divorce shennagians, and its been like that ever since. And given the current immigration issues in UK, it will actually squeeze the taxpayer more. Mainly the consquence of more immigration is the fall out of war driven by poor western foriegn policy, driven by arms dealers and good old bankers, hedgefunds. And guess what they will pay the least tax as its all in the cayman islands or other tax havens, via tax lawyers. The only thing the taxman is intrested in squeezing the working middle class, he cant squeeze the poor , becuase the middle working class are paying for it.  Its all numbers game and when you have government employ mandarins through hosing up stats and everyones data, which is the new oil, becuase its explotative, they can flex it to suit thier agenda. Anyone who believes government serves the people, they are sadly deluded.

Here endeth the truth.

Edited November 19, 2021 by HerefordBullyun

[HerefordBullyun]

On 04/11/2021 at 21:48, sixgun said:

i have a very vague memory of something where this was attempted.
This gold bullion scheme sprang to mind:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/aug/07/payment-in-gold-bullion-banned-under-new-law-to-combat-tax-evasion
Payment in gold bullion banned under new law to combat tax evasion
This wasn't as straightforward as simply using gold and silver coins of the realm as intended. There was more shenanigans than that going on. Unsurprisingly the authorities didn't like it. It was held it was a tax evasion scheme. 

Perhaps if there were an offshore company which was none of HMRC's business. Said company bought sovereigns - which HMRC would not know about nor would they be able to find out about in suitable circumstances. The company then paid the UK tax resident employee / self contractor. The payment was in Sterling and in legal tender coins at face value. Be quite up front about this - we paid in cash - we paid part in cash - be truthful, well sort of. What could be wrong with that. No need to declare such coins for CGT purposes of course since they are UK legal tender. For a pure UK company / employee situation it would become apparent there was something going on when company funds were being spent on sovereigns and then there were being paid out. HMRC would be onto this but a suitable offshore entity would be significantly less detectable.  

And good old george osbourne the irony 

When he introduced the GAAR rule, Osborne said: “Most wealthy people pay their taxes – and without them we could not begin to afford the public services on which the country depends. But under the last government, it was the boast of some high earners that, with the help of their accountants, they were paying less in tax than their cleaners. I regard tax evasion and, indeed, aggressive tax avoidance, as morally repugnant.”

Then this lol - you really couldnt make this up!

https://www.channel4.com/news/george-osborne-family-business-6m-deal-with-offshore-firm

[frugalman]

You should start a new party, I would vote for you lol

 

I nearly had my fill of social media again now bully, I done what I intended to do in safeguarding the truth. 

Now I can go back to just watching your jolly antics.

I may trade with you sometime in the future but not at £10 an oz lol.

 

Now lets NOT see what you would have won 😷 😇 😁

Da da da da da da da da     Da da da da doodle oodle om.

Chow for now.

[HerefordBullyun]

4 minutes ago, frugalman said:

You should start a new party, I would vote for you lol

 

I nearly had my fill of social media again now bully, I done what I intended to do in safeguarding the truth. 

Now I can go back to just watching your jolly antics.

I may trade with you sometime in the future but not at £10 an oz lol.

 

Now lets NOT see what you would have won 😷 😇 😁

Da da da da da da da da     Da da da da doodle oodle om.

Chow for now.

lol

[Bruce06]

What if bringing pre-decimal silver coins to UK? is it also subjected to VAT? If yes, how to assess the value, based on face value?

[TheAnimist]

I have a buddy in the US who has some Brits (4 full mint tubes) he got as a part payment for some work he did, they're the exact same year QE Brits i've purchased direct from RM some time ago, he doesn't want them, and knowing I'm a stacker he offered them to me at a knock down rate... so my ponderance is, if on my next visit I was to take my receipt for the tubes I purchased with me, but then bring back those QE Brits he has, should I be stopped I should be able to wave the receipt and say VAT was paid previously... 

I suppose the next question would be, why are you taking/bringing Brits in/out of the UK - but I could've taken them to the US to trade for something else, and that didn't work out, so now I'm bringing them back... (is that allowed or not?)

Never really flown with bullion before, I've been reading through all the various threads about the pitfalls, but given what he wants for them (<£18 a coin), it obvs piqued my interest 😃

So is this a crazy plan? Will shenanigans like this pass the customs smell test?

EDIT : I should add, I did tell him to sell them in the US as he'd make more than me giving him the $, but he only wanted to cover the value of the part payment, plus we've been friends for 45+ yrs, so he knows they're a give away to me...

Edited March 28 by TheAnimist