Tax on Silver when Entering the UK?

[KevjustKev]

I can't seem to find limit of the amount of silver being able to bought in to the UK without tax. But which I mean British coins, Brits, Beasts and the like. 

Is there minimum, one Brit and you have to pay 20% VAT on it? Or something like 25? I can understand 100's, but yet is there an allowance like there is on fags and wine?

I'm not talking about posting but bringing in, in person.

Type about this for a bit😁

Edited November 3, 2021 by tallthinkev

[Midasfrog]

🤷‍♂️ This is a good question but probably no allowance unless they are for personal consumption 😅

[sixgun]

Quote

Allowance for other goods

• A total of £390 worth of any other goods you bring in (£270 if travelling by private aircraft or private boat)

https://www.tax.service.gov.uk/check-tax-on-goods-you-bring-into-the-uk/goods-brought-into-great-britain-iom

[Pete]

Entering the UK from overseas you have a personal allowance for purchasing goods , gifts etc.
I cannot recall the figure - something like £300 per person - best to look it up on the government sites.

Provided you are within the allowance you can pass freely through the green channel.
If however you are stopped then it would be sensible to have some evidence of your silver cost or value by way of a receipt or proof of purchase.
If you were over the allowance you will be asked to pay 20% VAT on the amount exceeding your allowance and if this was substantial they might want to know why you didn't go through the red channel so maybe a penalty on top.

[KevjustKev]

7 hours ago, Pete said:

Entering the UK from overseas you have a personal allowance for purchasing goods , gifts etc.
I cannot recall the figure - something like £300 per person - best to look it up on the government sites.

Provided you are within the allowance you can pass freely through the green channel.
If however you are stopped then it would be sensible to have some evidence of your silver cost or value by way of a receipt or proof of purchase.
If you were over the allowance you will be asked to pay 20% VAT on the amount exceeding your allowance and if this was substantial they might want to know why you didn't go through the red channel so maybe a penalty on top.

That's thing I'm not to sure about, £300. 

Now is that spot. the price you paid overseas, the price it would have been in the UK, the price without VAT or even face value?

[Pete]

2 hours ago, tallthinkev said:

That's thing I'm not to sure about, £300. 

Now is that spot. the price you paid overseas, the price it would have been in the UK, the price without VAT or even face value?

When valuing imports it is the price you paid i.e. on your receipt. Otherwise it will be the value estimated by a customs officer so if you have a tube of Eagles, a quick Google search will show a retail value and that would likely be higher than you paid. If you get a good deal, obtain a proper receipt as backup.

[sjhdesmond]

Does it even apply to legal tender? If you're talking about Britannias etc, doesn't that count as cash rather than goods?

[sixgun]

Just now, sjhdesmond said:

Does it even apply to legal tender? If you're talking about Britannias etc, doesn't that count as cash rather than goods?

Well if you look at this HMRC webpage which deals with cash https://www.gov.uk/bringing-cash-into-uk

This defines cash as:

Quote

Types of cash

The types of cash you must declare are:

• notes and coins
• bearer bonds
• travellers’ cheques
• cheques (including travellers’ cheques) that are signed but not made out to a person or organisation

If you are carrying cash in or out of Northern Ireland, you must also declare:

• money orders
• gold coins, bullion or nuggets
• prepaid cards

A coin is legal tender. Legal tender - notes and coins are cash.

Quote

Taking cash in and out of Great Britain

You must declare cash of £10,000 or more to UK customs authorities if you carry it between Great Britain (England, Scotland and Wales) and another country.

So if you have less than £10 000 in coins you don't have to declare it.
A Britannia has a legal tender value of £2 - so that would mean if you had 4999 Britannias you would not have to declare this - that's 10 monster boxes (minus one coin).

That is what it says. If they are calling Britannias legal tender, which they are and they put £2 on the coin, then these are £2 coins, how else is a person supposed to view them? Making out they were something else might well be a crime. This is simply applying their rules.

Edited November 4, 2021 by sixgun

[sixgun]

We have gone back and forth over the argument of bringing silver into the country  - funnily enough i haven't seen exactly what i have posted above put forwards before - that is the rule that you don't need to declare less than £10 000 in cash.

The British Government created the £2 coins. These round pieces of metal are £2 coins because they have the Queen's head on and are marked up by the authorities as £2. That is what they are, they are £2 coins. They happen to be made of silver but legally they are £2 coins.

A green monster box has 500 x £2 coins. They are legal tender - they are money - they are cash. They don't become something else because the intrinsic value of the metal is worth more or less than £2.

They are cash and 4999 of them is less than £10 000 in cash - so according to HMRC rules they don't need to be declared.
If they were silver bars (not coin bars) then they would be dealt with as silver. These are coins and under the UK Coinage Act 1971, it is illegal to melt any UK coin produced after the 16th of May 1969, so these £2 coins are coins and it is illegal to use them as anything else (i.e. melt them down for their metal content).

Edited November 4, 2021 by sixgun

[sjhdesmond]

37 minutes ago, sixgun said:

 

A Britannia has a legal tender value of £2 - so that would mean if you had 4999 Britannias you would not have to declare this - that's 10 monster boxes (minus one coin).

 

I guess the more pertinent question for the OP would be "what is your baggage allowance?".

[LawrenceChard]

14 hours ago, Midasfrog said:

🤷‍♂️ This is a good question but probably no allowance unless they are for personal consumption 😅

I would definitely recommend not to swallow them, and even just biting them can cause problems! 😎

[LawrenceChard]

5 hours ago, tallthinkev said:

That's thing I'm not to sure about, £300. 

Now is that spot. the price you paid overseas, the price it would have been in the UK, the price without VAT or even face value?

I think you would find that HMRC will the higher or highest of different methods of valuation. If you wanted to use a lower valuation, then you would need to be prepared for an argument with them.

You might win, but probably not.

[LawrenceChard]

2 hours ago, sjhdesmond said:

Does it even apply to legal tender? If you're talking about Britannias etc, doesn't that count as cash rather than goods?

You and @BrettChamberlain would be arguing in opposite directions.

If you try it, you could take him along with you to take video of it.

[LawrenceChard]

1 hour ago, sixgun said:

We have gone back and forth over the argument of bringing silver into the country  - funnily enough i haven't seen exactly what i have posted above put forwards before - that is the rule that you don't need to declare less than £10 000 in cash.

The British Government created the £2 coins. These round pieces of metal are £2 coins because they have the Queen's head on and are marked up by the authorities as £2. That is what they are, they are £2 coins. They happen to be made of silver but legally they are £2 coins.

A green monster box has 500 x £2 coins. They are legal tender - they are money - they are cash. They don't become something else because the intrinsic value of the metal is worth more or less than £2.

They are cash and 4999 of them is less than £10 000 in cash - so according to HMRC rules they don't need to be declared.
 

You and @BrettChamberlain would be arguing in opposite directions.

If you try it, you could take him along with you to take video of it. 😎

[LawrenceChard]

39 minutes ago, sjhdesmond said:

I guess the more pertinent question for the OP would be "what is your baggage allowance?".

Has anyone else ever exceeded🙂 the baggage allowance on a ferry? 

[sixgun]

25 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

You and @BrettChamberlain would be arguing in opposite directions.

If you try it, you could take him along with you to take video of it. 😎

We know what would happen - they would not apply their own rules. They would say that is 4999 ounces of silver. It is like the £100 coin and the petrol case. In the end the guy was vindicated. If the authorities want to make £100 coins then that is their business. If the authorities made 2 oz rounds (not coins) we know they would not be able to sell them for £100, well not until the price of silver went to £50 an ounce. So they decide to run with a gimmick to make some 'free money' - the £100 for £100 gimmick. It is simply an exchange of legal tender for legal tender, fair enough if it is legal tender. They don't like it when they have the very rules they create interpreted according to their own rules.

The Britannia is a £2 coin. It's nothing else - it would be illegal to use it for its silver content - in reality it might as well be made of silver plated brass b/c it is illegal to use the silver in it. 
HM Government laws say it is legal tender. The Royal Mint marks them up as £2 coins. HMRC rules say coins are cash and you don't have to declare less than £10 000. They made the rules. There may be a stated case somewhere but if it ran according to the law you can bet it will be buried very deep. If this were taken to court the judgement cannot be other than you can bring in less than £10,000 in cash without declaring it and as the 1 oz silver Britannia is legal tender with a face value of £2 that means you can bring in 4999 Britannias.

Edited November 4, 2021 by sixgun

[LawrenceChard]

6 minutes ago, sixgun said:

We know what would happen - they would not apply their own rules. They would say that is 4999 ounces of silver. It is like the £100 coin and the petrol case. In the end the guy was vindicated. If the authorities want to make £100 coins then that is their business. If the authorities made 2 oz rounds (not coins) we know they would not be able to sell them for £100, well not until the price of silver went to £50 an ounce. So they decide to run with a gimmick to make some 'free money' - the £100 for £100 gimmick. It is simply an exchange of legal tender for legal tender, fair enough if it is legal tender. They don't like it when they have the very rules they create interpreted according to their own rules.

The Britannia is a £2 coin. It's nothing else - it would be illegal to use it for its silver content - in reality it might as well be made of silver plated brass b/c it is illegal to use the silver in it. 
HM Government laws say it is legal tender. The Royal Mint marks them up as £2 coins. HMRC rules say coins are cash and you don't have to declare less than £10 000. They made the rules. There may be a stated case somewhere but if it ran according to the law you can bet it will be buried very deep. If this were taken to court the judgement cannot be other than you can bring in less than £10,000 in cash without declaring it and as the 1 oz silver Britannia is legal tender with a face value of £2 that means you can bring in 4999 Britannias.

As I replied to another post:

"I think you would find that HMRC will the higher or highest of different methods of valuation. If you wanted to use a lower valuation, then you would need to be prepared for an argument with them.

You might win, but probably not."

also:

It might help if you had good evidence that you had only paid £2 each for them, which is highly unlikely, but even then I suspect HMRC would use "market value".

I would not try it, and I rather enjoy being dialectic.

B.T.W.: I support Brett's arguments and actions about the right to use legal tender coins in payment of a debt.

There are also wider implications which I have yet to write about.

[sixgun]

1 hour ago, LawrenceChard said:

As I replied to another post:

"I think you would find that HMRC will the higher or highest of different methods of valuation. If you wanted to use a lower valuation, then you would need to be prepared for an argument with them.

You might win, but probably not."

also:

It might help if you had good evidence that you had only paid £2 each for them, which is highly unlikely, but even then I suspect HMRC would use "market value".

I would not try it, and I rather enjoy being dialectic.

B.T.W.: I support Brett's arguments and actions about the right to use legal tender coins in payment of a debt.

There are also wider implications which I have yet to write about.

Legal tender cash is not goods. Cash has a face value which the HM Government defines and the Royal Mint stamps on the coin.
 
HMRC would be defining legal tender cash as goods to be able to use a 'market value'. Cash is not goods.

What you exchanged for an item doesn't change what the item is. As i say HRMC does and will define the 1 oz pieces of metal as goods - the HM Government has defined these 1 oz pieces are legal tender and hence coins - in turn HMRC defines coins as cash - NOT goods.
 
The Britannia coins are not legal tender outside the UK and as such one could melt them down and one might argue the 1 oz Britannias are in fact goods b/c they aren't legal tender and so aren't coins. If you brought American Silver Eagles to the border then i would say HRMC could rightly argue this isn't legal tender, it isn't coins, it isn't cash, it's pieces of silver. 
The instant the Britannias are in the UK they becomes coins and so become cash and are no longer goods. Their value is the face value on the coin. To attempt to extract the silver value from the coin would be a crime. One might argue HMRC is imagining the commission of a crime by suggesting the coins have the value of the silver. Are they not inciting crime by their actions?

Now i see in the Currency Act 1983 it provides:

Quote

 

s3 (1A)Subject to any provision made by proclamation under section 3 of this Act, coins of cupronickel, silver or bronze shall be legal tender as follows—

(a)coins of cupronickel or silver of denominations of more than 10 pence, for payment of any amount not exceeding £10;

(b)coins of cupronickel or silver of denominations of not more than 10 pence, for payment of any amount not exceeding £5;

 

Could HMRC argue you have more than £10 face value of Britannias there and we aren't deeming the remaining 4994 coins as legal tender coins (cash).

It is true the £2 Britannia coins aren't legal tender for payment of amounts exceeding £10. 
However that the legal tender coins are not legal tender for discrete payments over £10 doesn't make large numbers of them not legal tender when grouped together.

The whole things revolves around whether the £2 Britannia is cash or not. It is cash, money and VAT is not applied to cash. HMRC obviously will argue some other way. They ignore the 5% VAT rules for numismatic coins unless pressed hard - if UK legal tender coins are cash (which they are) then no VAT should be applied to these coins inside the UK. What the coin is made of does alter what the coins is. What it is has been stamped on the faces by the Royal Mint. 

 

Edited November 4, 2021 by sixgun

[TommyTwoShots]

1 hour ago, LawrenceChard said:

As I replied to another post:

"I think you would find that HMRC will the higher or highest of different methods of valuation. If you wanted to use a lower valuation, then you would need to be prepared for an argument with them.

You might win, but probably not."

also:

It might help if you had good evidence that you had only paid £2 each for them, which is highly unlikely, but even then I suspect HMRC would use "market value".

I would not try it, and I rather enjoy being dialectic.

B.T.W.: I support Brett's arguments and actions about the right to use legal tender coins in payment of a debt.

There are also wider implications which I have yet to write about.

This is good advice. As usual.

[sovereignsteve]

I think the salient point here is that if there was any chance HMRC would class Brits as cash/legal tender, they wouldn't insist that dealers charge VAT upon sale.

[LawrenceChard]

6 minutes ago, sixgun said:

Legal tender cash is not goods. Cash has a face value which the HM Government defines and the Royal Mint stamps on the coin.
 
HMRC would be defining legal tender cash as goods to be able to use a 'market value'. Cash is not goods.

What you exchanged for an item doesn't change what the item is. As i say HRMC does and will define the 1 oz pieces of metal as goods - the HM Government has defined these 1 oz pieces are legal tender and hence coins - in turn HMRC defines coins as cash - NOT goods.
 
The Britannia coins are not legal tender outside the UK and as such one could melt them down and one might argue the 1 oz Britannias are in fact goods b/c they aren't legal tender and so aren't coins. If you brought American Silver Eagles to the border then i would say HRMC could rightly argue this isn't legal tender, it isn't coins, it isn't cash, it's pieces of silver. 
The instant the Britannias are in the UK they becomes coins and so become cash and are no longer goods. Their value is the face value on the coin. To attempt to extract the silver value from the coin would be a crime. One might argue HMRC is imagining the commission of a crime by suggesting the coins have the value of the silver. Are they not inciting crime by their actions?

Now i see in the Currency Act 1983 it provides:

Could HMRC argue you have more than £10 face value of Britannias there are we aren't deeming the remaining 4994 coins as legal tender coins.

It is true the £2 Britannia coins aren't legal tender for payment of amounts exceeding £10. 
However that the legal tender coins are not legal tender for payments over £10 doesn't make large numbers of them not legal tender when grouped together.

The whole things revolves around whether the £2 Britannia is cash or not. It is cash, money and VAT is not applied to cash. HMRC obviously will argue some other way. They ignore the 5% VAT rules for numismatic coins unless pressed hard - if UK legal tender coins are cash (which they are) then not VAT should be applied to these coins inside the UK. When the coin made of does alter what the coins is. What it is has been stamped on the faces by the Royal Mint. 

 

I wish we were free to pick and choose how we define our own value of coins, but unfortunately we are not.

"Legal tender cash is not goods."

Perhaps not, but it can be, or be considered as.

"HMRC would be defining legal tender cash as goods"

Not necessarily.

"The Britannia coins are not legal tender outside the UK and as such one could melt them down and one might argue the 1 oz Britannias are in fact goods"

In which case, when you bought them, and tried to import them, they were bought as goods, at a premium, and not at their face value.

"It is true the £2 Britannia coins aren't legal tender for payment of amounts exceeding £10. "

I do not think this is correct. 

From Wikipedia: "Throughout the United Kingdom, coins valued 1 pound, 2 pounds, and 5 pounds sterling are legal tender in unlimited amounts."

The Royal Mint charges VAT (within the UK) on silver Britannias, and also on the silver £20, £50, and £100 coins.

Believe me, we are on the same side wishing there was no VAT on silver coins in the UK, but in reality there is.

 

 

[LawrenceChard]

6 minutes ago, sovereignsteve said:

I think the salient point here is that if there was any chance HMRC would class Brits as cash/legal tender, they wouldn't insist that dealers charge VAT upon sale.

And, as I posted earlier:

"The Royal Mint charges VAT (within the UK) on silver Britannias, and also on the silver £20, £50, and £100 coins."

I wonder if @BrettChamberlain knows that?

[sjhdesmond]

If I was made of lawyers I would absolutely be challenging the current interpretation.

[sixgun]

23 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

"It is true the £2 Britannia coins aren't legal tender for payment of amounts exceeding £10. "

I do not think this is correct. 

Currency Act 1983 s3 (1A)Subject to any provision made by proclamation under section 3 of this Act, coins of cupronickel, silver or bronze shall be legal tender as follows—

(a)coins of cupronickel or silver of denominations of more than 10 pence, for payment of any amount not exceeding £10;

We have heard stories about people bowling up with buckets of pennies and these being refused. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1983/9 It is in the Currency Act 1983 s3 (1A)(a) - silver coins with a denomination of more than 10 pence are not legal tender for amounts more than £10. 
We better tell https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ that they have got it wrong and they need to refer to Wikipedia.

i am simply reading the rules and the Acts. We all know what HRMC does - that doesn't make what they do legal but they have all the guns and Might is right when it comes to these matters.
They are calling these Britannias 'coins' but are dealing with them as 'round / medallions'. That is what they are doing. 

i had a number of limited companies over time. If i had got them to pay me in sovereigns at £1 or Britannias at £2, all of a sudden this legal tender wouldn't be legal tender - they would be screaming fraud and tax evasion for using their legal tender coins as legal tender at face value.

Edited November 4, 2021 by sixgun

[LawrenceChard]

1 hour ago, sixgun said:

Currency Act 1983 s3 (1A)Subject to any provision made by proclamation under section 3 of this Act, coins of cupronickel, silver or bronze shall be legal tender as follows—

(a)coins of cupronickel or silver of denominations of more than 10 pence, for payment of any amount not exceeding £10;

We have heard stories about people bowling up with buckets of pennies and these being refused. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1983/9 It is in the Currency Act 1983 s3 (1A)(a) - silver coins with a denomination of more than 10 pence are not legal tender for amounts more than £10. 
We better tell https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ that they have got it wrong and they need to refer to Wikipedia.

i am simply reading the rules and the Acts. We all know what HRMC does - that doesn't make what they do legal but they have all the guns and Might is right when it comes to these matters.
They are calling these Britannias 'coins' but are dealing with them as 'round / medallions'. That is what they are doing. 

i had a number of limited companies over time. If i had got them to pay me in sovereigns at £1 or Britannias at £2, all of a sudden this legal tender wouldn't be legal tender - they would be screaming fraud and tax evasion for using their legal tender coins as legal tender at face value.

Read on a little further:

(1B)Other coins, if made current by a proclamation under section 3 of this Act, shall be legal tender in accordance with the provision made by that proclamation or by any later proclamation made under that section.”;

and: (Privy Council Proclamation)

TWO POUND STANDARD SILVER COIN 12. (1) A new coin of silver of the denomination of two pounds shall be made, being a coin of a standard weight of 31.21 grammes, a standard diameter of 38.61 millimetres, a standard composition of not less than 999 parts per thousand fine silver, and being circular in shape. (2) In the making of the said silver coin a remedy (that is, a variation from the standard weight or diameter specified above) shall be allowed of an amount not exceeding the following, that is to say: (a) a variation from the said standard weight of an amount per coin of 0.15 grammes; and (b) a variation from the said standard diameter of 0.125 millimetres per coin. (3) The variation from the standard weight will be measured as the average of a sample of not more than one kilogram of the coin. (4) The design of the said silver coin shall be as follows: ‘For the obverse impression Our effigy with the inscription “· ELIZABETH II · D · G · REG · F · D · 2 POUNDS”, and for the reverse a depiction of ten heraldic beasts encircling Our effigy, with the inscription “THE QUEEN’S BEASTS” and the date of the year. The coin shall have a grained edge.’ (5) The said silver coin shall be legal tender for payment of any amount in any part of Our United Kingdom. 

Yes, this related to Queen's Beasts, but if you look for a proclamation relating to silver Britannias, you will find similar wording.