Sovereign type recommendations for a beginner in these fascinating coins

[LawrenceChard]

9 hours ago, Foster88 said:

I feel sorry for the poor sods born in 1940’s then. 😆

They could hoard 1925-L London Mint sovereigns, many of which were made in 1949, although some were made in 1950 and 1951.

Believe it or not, some were even made in 1925. 🙂

 

[SidS]

Just now, LawrenceChard said:

They could hoard 1925-L London Mint sovereigns, many of which were made in 1949, although some were made in 1950 and 1951.

Believe it or not, some were even made in 1925. 🙂

 

Is there a way of telling if it's an original 1925 or a restrike from the 40s/50s?

[LawrenceChard]

4 hours ago, darkninja1985 said:

What year did they introduce this copper colour style sov? I prefer the old colour personally

You might need to ask the Royal Mint, but I doubt anybody there actually knows, or can give you an accurate answer.

One approximate answer would be from the start of our current queen's reign, so for practical purposes, 1957.

@ChardsCoinandBullionDealer have a brief blog page here: 
https://www.chards.co.uk/blog/analysis-of-alloy-content-of-gold-sovereigns/180

I have tested many more sovereigns than shown in the table, and intend to produce a more complete list, possibly an exhaustive one, at some time in the future.

Currently, the page omits some important information:

Niton XRF Test Results

We used our Niton XRF machine to analyse the alloy content of a number of British Gold Sovereigns. The table below shows coins from a representative selection of dates and mints. Even though XRF machines are quite expensive, they do not give precise results, and are subject to tolerances and small levels of error. See for example our Substandard Krugerrand blog.

https://www.chards.co.uk/blog/krugerrand-gold-content/507

Bearing this in mind, do not worry too much about the apparent variations in gold content, but do note the variations in the silver content.

 

Edited June 23, 2021 by LawrenceChard
typo

[LawrenceChard]

On 22/06/2021 at 10:32, xthomasx said:

When I finally decided to invest in gold sovereigns, I went to a major gold dealer here, taking a big wad of fiat with me.

They gave me one each of 'all' sovereign types - 3x Victoria, Edward VII, George V, 3x QE (i.e. no pre-Victoria, no shield back, no George VI, no 1983-2000 QE), so I had something to get aquainted with.

That was for starters; today I have around 150 different sovereigns.

 

Still a beginner then? 🙂

[LawrenceChard]

On 22/06/2021 at 09:23, Leonmarsh said:

Can't beat victoria young heads IMO eapecially shield backs 

For a real challenge, and great rarity, look out for shield front sovereigns! 🙂

[LawrenceChard]

16 hours ago, Booky586 said:

 

Chards website has some useful information for new starters, but you may have advanced from this level and it's not sovereign specific: https://www.chards.co.uk/blog/precious-metals-information-and-advice-for-newbies/1008

I'm with @dicker regarding Gillicks too, you could find a very nice one for a relatively low premium. Then may be use it as a starting point for a collection, @Roy has listed a few good ideas.

Careful though, collecting sovereigns can get VERY addictive!

Thanks @Booky586 for the link to our new newbie page.

This in a page I wrote in 1998 or 1999, although we have updated some images, and probably corrected a few typos.

https://24carat.co.uk/collectingcoinsframe.html

[LawrenceChard]

35 minutes ago, SidS said:

Is there a way of telling if it's an original 1925 or a restrike from the 40s/50s?

As (almost) ever, the answer is on our website:

https://www.chards.co.uk/1925-gold-sovereign-george-v-london/6021

However, we believe that the restrikes can be distinguished from the originals by the more pronounced rim around the edge of the coin. Despite the lower mintage figures for the restrikes, the high-rimmed restrikes are actually much more common than the low-rimmed originals, due the fact that the originals were melted down in huge quantities for bullion.

I have XRF tested a few 1925-L sovereigns, but this is still an ongoing research project, as and when any low-rims turn up, which is infrequently. Detailed visual inspection is still more important, and I often use zoomed in high resolution photographs, but an XRF test is a nice quick, albeit lazy, resource.

[xthomasx]

59 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

Still a beginner then? 🙂

Yes, very much so 🙂

In the meantime I try to afford more quality (slabbed, proofs, SotD etc.) than quantity, which of course slows down the rise in numbers.

[Richym99]

The first two sovereigns I owned were both 2019, which were gifted to me by my mother (early inheritance). They were ok to look at, and I was aware of the value, but I could not find any real beauty in them.

It was only when I decided to convert my savings into gold, that I started looking more seriously. A set of twelve sovereigns in a boxed collection caught my eye, being sold by this guy in Blackpool with a fishy sounding name 😉. It consisted of 4 Victoria, 4 Edward VII and 4 George V sovereigns, with an example of each from London, Sydney, Melbourne and Perth mints for each Monarch. 

When I received them a few days later and began to look closely, I was immediately struck by the intricate detail of the engravings and subtle differences in designs of different years. Those two 2019 coins barely registered in comparison. 

The Gillicks have their own charm, and as much younger coins, are less prone to the knicks and dents that the older sovereigns have, but that is what also gives the older ones their uniqueness.

As a relative newcomer myself, I would suggest starting with the later Victoria and George V. They are relatively easy to find, easier to sell and don't command high premiums. Once you have got the bug and learnt a bit about what makes individual sovereigns more valuable than others, then start looking but be patient.

 

[Scootermuppet]

13 hours ago, Foster88 said:

...and two random sovereigns from Hatton Garden which was a 1897 M mint and a 1965 Gillick sovereign.

You've got a headstart on me there then - that's the year I'll need to match my birth year! 

('65, not 1897 😂)

[Richym99]

3 minutes ago, Scootermuppet said:

You've got a headstart on me there then - that's the year I'll need to match my birth year! 

('65, not 1897 😂)

65's have come up in the buy and sell four or five times this year. I'm sure they will appear again.

[Scootermuppet]

Just now, Richym99 said:

65's have come up in the buy and sell four or five times this year. I'm sure they will appear again.

I'll be posting a wanted post later today as well ☺️👍

[dicker]

8 hours ago, darkninja1985 said:

What year did they introduce this copper colour style sov? I prefer the old colour personally

I believe 2000 was the first time the current coppery, mushy bullion Sov was minted.  If my memory serves me correctly the last bullion issue before that was 1982 - can anyone correct me?

Best 

Dicker

[LawrenceChard]

2 hours ago, xthomasx said:

Yes, very much so 🙂

In the meantime I try to afford more quality (slabbed, proofs, SotD etc.) than quantity, which of course slows down the rise in numbers.

50+ years on, and I'm still learning...

Might be getting quite good in another 50.

[pricha]

I buy a few now and again , then when i have a fair amount they go in the safe with the others.  I always enjoy when i get them out of the safe because half the time i forgot what i have .  😂  But i do notice when i first started, i collected some fairly worn coins or at least didn't take much attention to condition . Now i'm  far more particular . I even weeded out some of them and sold them on.  I would recommend getting decent Sovereigns as beat up ones look horrible in a collection , for me anyway.  

Edited June 23, 2021 by pricha

[pricha]

And one last thing . Do not buy from ebay . There are good fakes and bad fakes on the site. Only buy from reputable dealers . Once you have a variety of different designs you'll soon get used to them and hopefully then be able to spot anything suspect.  

[Seasider]

3 hours ago, Scootermuppet said:

You've got a headstart on me there then - that's the year I'll need to match my birth year! 

('65, not 1897 😂)

Just in case you don't get one on here

1965 Gold Sovereign NGC MS 64 #3956239-002 (AGW=0.2355 oz.) | The Coin Cabinet Auctions

[Scootermuppet]

37 minutes ago, Seasider said:

Just in case you don't get one on here

1965 Gold Sovereign NGC MS 64 #3956239-002 (AGW=0.2355 oz.) | The Coin Cabinet Auctions

Thanks!  Hadn't considered a graded one 🤔 guess it depends on how much it gets up to - any idea of an average price for those?

That's what I love about this forum - really helpful members! 😁👍

Bob

[Seasider]

46 minutes ago, Scootermuppet said:

Thanks!  Hadn't considered a graded one 🤔 guess it depends on how much it gets up to - any idea of an average price for those?

That's what I love about this forum - really helpful members! 😁👍

Bob

The NGC price guide would tell you $550 whatever that is in real money.  My guess is it won't go for less than £380.  Another early 60s at MS64 went for £450 and a 66 in MS64 went for £430 in the last Coin Cabinet auction.  But it is an auction so who knows.  If you are not doing anything else on Sunday you could watch it and see how high it goes (or doesn't).

[Scootermuppet]

1 minute ago, Seasider said:

....If you are not doing anything else on Sunday you could watch it and see how high it goes (or doesn't).

If I'm at home, I certainly will 😊👍

[Richym99]

44 minutes ago, Scootermuppet said:

Thanks!  Hadn't considered a graded one 🤔 guess it depends on how much it gets up to - any idea of an average price for those?

That's what I love about this forum - really helpful members! 😁👍

Bob

The last two ungraded 1965 sovs sold at Coins of the Realm auctions went for £370 and £400.

Coin cabinet recently auctions an MS64 1963 for £430 and a 1966 MS65 for £530

On here, ungraded 1965's have been sold for between £315 and £335 recently. 

Or, talk nicely to @LawrenceChardand he will sell you a Very Fine graded one for £338 or an Extremely Fine grade on for £350 plus £6,00 postage, and take the waiting and guesswork out of the process. 😉  

[Scootermuppet]

6 minutes ago, Richym99 said:

The last two ungraded 1965 sovs sold at Coins of the Realm auctions went for £370 and £400.

Coin cabinet recently auctions an MS64 1963 for £430 and a 1966 MS65 for £530

On here, ungraded 1965's have been sold for between £315 and £335 recently. 

Or, talk nicely to @LawrenceChardand he will sell you a Very Fine graded one for £338 or an Extremely Fine grade on for £350 plus £6,00 postage, and take the waiting and guesswork out of the process. 😉  

Bugger! Literally just posted a 'Wanted' post on the forum... 🤦

Will wait to see if that generates any replies, if not, looks like I'll be contacting @LawrenceChard 😏

Thanks @Richym99👍

Edited June 23, 2021 by Scootermuppet
Added emoji

[SidS]

18 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

As (almost) ever, the answer is on our website:

https://www.chards.co.uk/1925-gold-sovereign-george-v-london/6021

However, we believe that the restrikes can be distinguished from the originals by the more pronounced rim around the edge of the coin.

Some interesting info there. Just out of interest, when it comes to the edges are the high rim ones slightly thicker than the low rim ones? Without seeing them in hand, I assume the low rim ones are the same design as the earlier George V sovereigns?

Although I have collected sovereigns in the past, with the exception of a Bombay 1918 and a Ottawa 1917, I never went past 1914. So I've never had any 1920s+ sovereigns.

Edited June 24, 2021 by SidS

[LawrenceChard]

4 hours ago, SidS said:

Some interesting info there. Just out of interest, when it comes to the edges are the high rim ones slightly thicker than the low rim ones? Without seeing them in hand, I assume the low rim ones are the same design as the earlier George V sovereigns?

Although I have collected sovereigns in the past, with the exception of a Bombay 1918 and a Ottawa 1917, I never went past 1914. So I've never had any 1920s+ sovereigns.

Thicker? I don't think so, but will try to remember to take a closer look some time.

Same design? Yes*, theoretically, although there will be differences between dies, and due to differences in striking.

* Except for 1929 to 1932, with the smaller head.

I sometimes play a "guess the date" game, usually with pre-decimal bronze pennies. I look at the head (obverse) side, and try to guess the date. There are 22 different dates of George V, if we exclude 1933, so it might be assumed that a particular date would occue about 5% or the time, but 1927 used a modified effigy, as did some 1926 coins, 1928 onwards have a smaller head, so if we recalculate the odds, it gets closer to 10%, although of course some dates have higher mintages, which distorts the real odds. 

I demonstrated this to a staff member many years ago, using 10 pennies I had scooped at random from a George V bag, with about 80% to 90% success rate. She suspected me of cheating, and first checked all 10 coins I had looked at for marks on the obverses. I don't cheat, so of course there were no marks. She then challenged me to repeat the test using 10 coins she selected. The results were similar, and she was convinced. She had generously said she would allow one year either side as correct, and I think I scored 100% on that basis.

I do not know exactly how I manage to do it, but there are often colour variations in the bronze, and some have a streaky appearance, some appear lighter, some darker. I am sure there are subtle design changes over time. I can say that I have probably handled more old pennies then most people, spending time sorting and date checking them, so I may have sub-consciously registered some of the differences, so let's say "years of experience". 

I don't guarantee that I can replicate 80% to 90%, but would hope that the next time I try, I should be able to get better than 50%.

I also informally play the same game with myself when checking sovereigns. The success rates are lower, possibly because the alloy of the coins is more uniform. I also include guessing the mintmark in this game, which adds another level to the challenge. I don't remember ever conducting a formal experiment to check my accuracy with sovereigns, but am certain it beats random probability.

[dicker]

@LawrenceChard

In your many years of inspecting Sovereigns, had you come across anything really rare or really special that you would consider as unique - or undiscovered?

Best

Dicker