Sovereign Problem

[Cornishfarmer]

Haven’t read all the thread but a few things,

If Atkinson’s can’t tell if it’s real the seller wouldn’t know it might not be.

If Atkinsons are offering £200 for it and it’s 97% gold they are trying to rip you off

If atkinsons can’t tell if it’s real they don’t really deserve business as they could buy and sell coins like this.

 

[Coincollector]

If the coin measures and weighs correct then it’s solid gold and not plated. I have had 9ct and 18ct sovereign copies and none have measured correct. I’m surprised Atkinsons have not done this to easily rule out it being plated, 9ct or 18ct.

[Britannia47]

Sovereign weights:

The official weight is 7.9881g. But it’s not unusual for it to be 8g. or slightly more!  I weigh all my sovereigns with calibrated scales especially ‘shields’. There has been no mention of the exact weight of this one except to say it’s apparently OK! Any sovereign up for sale seems to have the tag 7.98g whether newly minted or circulated, but that may not be the case. I only have 15 ‘shields’ and as expected the weights vary according to wear. All are within the range of legal tender except for 2. If a sovereign weighs less than 7.937 then it should be taken out of circulation as illegal tender. However. that was in the old days. Underweight sovereigns can still retain their numismatic value. It’s a pity another sovereign was not weighed at the same time as a control or comparison in this case.

The readings for this coin are a mystery that’s for sure. Doing the sums at Au at 97.45% that equates to 7.77g of actual gold or 1/4oz! So if the readings are correct that’s not a bad fake to have. We have to wait and see……

Edited December 9, 2023 by Britannia47

[Upsidedown]

1 minute ago, Britannia47 said:

Sovereign weights:

The official weight is 7.9881g. But it’s not unusual for it to be 8g. I weigh all my sovereigns with calibrated scales especially ‘shields’. There has been no mention of the exact weight of this one except to say it’s apparently OK! Any sovereign up for sale seems to have the tag 7.98g whether newly minted or circulated, but that may not be the case. I only have 15 ‘shields’ and as expected the weights vary according to wear. All are within the range of legal tender except for 2. If a sovereign weighs less than 7.937 then it should be taken out of circulation as illegal tender. However. that was in the old days. Underweight sovereigns can still retain their numismatic value. It’s a pity another sovereign was not weighed at the same time as a control or comparison in this case.

The readings for this coin are a mystery that’s for sure. Doing the sums at Au at 97.45% that equates to 7.77g of actual gold or 1/4oz! So if the readings are correct that’s not a bad fake to have. We have to wait and see……

What about overweight, I have one at 8.16g that fits the exact dimensions of a normal sov!

[Upsidedown]

@modofantasma professional opinion?

[Coincollector]

Would be slightly higher than 22ct a possible fake sovereign but if you’re stacking for weight it wouldn’t matter. If you paid a few percent over spot it wouldn’t matter. If it’s a premium coin of a rare year etc and you have paid a hefty premium then there is a problem. 

[Upsidedown]

I don't why a random 1973 IOM sov would be faked, would have been at a loss.

It makes all the right noises too and looks perfect.

Mystery 

[Coincollector]

That will be fine. 

[Upsidedown]

Just now, Coincollector said:

That will be fine. 

Can sovs weigh that much and be real?

[Coincollector]

As it’s an Isle Of Mann I would say it’s definitely real. If an older coin then unlikely

[Britannia47]

4 minutes ago, Upsidedown said:

@modofantasma professional opinion?

Have you calibrated your scales recently?

Firstly, the 1st photo is a Pobjoy Isle of Man Sovereign which uses  yellow gold in its alloy and not exactly to RM specification

Secondly, the Young head Sov looks to have a lot of wear, and the weight doesn’t seems to match so I have to say ‘I don’t know’

 

 

[Upsidedown]

2 minutes ago, Britannia47 said:

Have you calibrated your scales recently?

Firstly, the 1st photo is a Pobjoy Isle of Man Sovereign which uses  yellow gold in its alloy and not exactly to RM specification

Secondly, the Young head Sov looks to have a lot of wear, and the weight doesn’t seems to match so I have to say ‘I don’t know’

 

 

Used a gillick instead with no wear.

Of course now the IOM now weighs 8.13g but still much higher than it should be

[flyingveepixie]

4 hours ago, AdamDutton said:

@bobski surely a £15,000 machine isn't worth it. The sovereign was 97% pure gold on the machine. What sort of sense does that make. If it was fake it should say it was a lot less surely. There needs to be better equipment out there.

That's my thinking. The available equipment, while ok-ish, costs a fortune and still can't verify with 100% certainty

Edited December 9, 2023 by flyingveepixie

[KevjustKev]

13 hours ago, Orpster said:

If you mean the fake, forum rules will prevent you auctioning that I'm afriad

If this 'coin' is put up for sale, and posted as a copy would that be alright? I can see if knowingly posting a fake is a no, no

Edited December 9, 2023 by KevjustKev

[Britannia47]

I think we should draw a line under the weight issue before we go off topic. @Upsidedown

My scale readings are similar to yours. I am confident that the small increases above the stipulated weight are normal and do not signal a red flag…….

Even 1oz gold bullion - 22 or 24 ct  carries a little extra weight to ensure not dropping below minimum.

Edited December 11, 2023 by Britannia47

[DavePa]

4 hours ago, AdamDutton said:

I do all the basic checks when it comes in, weight, dimensions etc and i’ve handled a lot of sovereigns in my time and can usually tell a fake. The coin in question came from a very reputable source and wasn't bought from the general public but a very reputable supplier which may have slipped under the radar. I don’t really want to mention who as a lot of dealers will probably buy from them and I don’t want to reveal the information as that's how I make a living. The supplier will be contacted confidentially as they have been in business for over 100 years. There’s a lot of eye balls on this post and I don't want to tell the forum my sources as it would jeopardise selling coins at the prices I do and it's difficult enough to find bargains as it is. Especially with spreads being so low. I’m half tempted to move away from bullion and focus on just numismatic pieces as it isn't economical working on the spreads I am at the moment on the bullion side.

Looks, to an outsider and casual observer, that you have been unlucky and this is one that passed through the net. It also seems to me that without traders such as yourself this subject matter and stacking would be a more difficult process so it would be a loss to us as well as you. Consider this a bit of a bump in the road and keep it up chap. You have done right by the OP which is commendable so nothing lost there. 

To the OP - sorry that this has happened and must be very frustrating/irritating. I'm sure Atkinsons will pass it off as one of those things and won't besmirch your rep with them. If you have passed good business their way in the past this is again a bump. They have lost nothing but a bit of time and I assume they see this sort of thing more often than we realise. 

Have a great weekend all. What we are allowed to enjoy in this weather anyway. 

[Spyder]

Saw that someone already raised the point I was making about calibration of scales. 

Edited December 9, 2023 by Spyder

[Upsidedown]

2 minutes ago, Spyder said:

I think you scales are out. The young head looks very worn from photo and should not weigh 7.99g

It's a bad photo tbf, not as worn as it looks, just low light not allowing the camera to pick up details.

I updated with a gillick instead

[andrewse]

2 hours ago, Upsidedown said:

@modofantasma professional opinion?

Same here with my IOM sovereigns.

 

[Upsidedown]

1 minute ago, andrewse said:

Same here with my IOM sovereigns.

 

Seems to be consistent

It says online they should be 7.98 but obviously that's wrong..

This is my first one so I didn't know

[Spyder]

5 minutes ago, andrewse said:

Same here with my IOM sovereigns.

 

I think this is a known fact (about those in the know) that the IOM sovereign has slightly more gold and for this reason seems to hold a slight premium. I myself have never owned one so did not know about this big weight difference and would also have thought it odd to be so much more than the stated figures.  Everyday is a learning day

Edited December 9, 2023 by Spyder

[JohnA1]

12 hours ago, VeracityM said:

So as I said in previous thread messages - I sent it to sell to them as I knew they would test it. I don't know anyone with a sigma machine. I also said on the thread to 'Pixie' that I just had a feeling that the coin was strange - it had a matt colour to it and unusual patina on it.

If you were around London I would be interested to put it through the Sigma Mini  - it can look through the whole coin and tell us if it is one of the pre-set purities. Can also do a specific gravity test easily using the gross weight, although the smaller the coin the less accurate this test can be (doesn't hurt though!)

Better than an XRF in that respect, those only go to a depth of a few microns.

Edited December 9, 2023 by JohnA1

[flyingveepixie]

For the sake of interest I just went and measured the weight of five different sovereigns. No two were the same. I should add however that the scale I used is a cheap chinese piece of tat which I purchased on Amazon for a fiver - looks almost exactly the same as the one @Upsidedown is using -  and was originally intended to weigh crossbow bolts with. It's good enough for that little job..🧐   It also only provides results to two decimal places.

here are my results :

1862 shield : 7.95g

1903 : 7.94g

1919 : 7.98g

1965 : 8.00g

2018 : 8.01g

Edited December 9, 2023 by flyingveepixie

[pricha]

This coin has produced huge interest.  My head is spinning with the opinions.  Can we all have a rip round and get the hacksaw out ? 

[NGMD]

9 hours ago, AdamDutton said:

I do all the basic checks when it comes in, weight, dimensions etc and i’ve handled a lot of sovereigns in my time and can usually tell a fake. The coin in question came from a very reputable source and wasn't bought from the general public but a very reputable supplier which may have slipped under the radar. I don’t really want to mention who as a lot of dealers will probably buy from them and I don’t want to reveal the information as that's how I make a living. The supplier will be contacted confidentially as they have been in business for over 100 years. There’s a lot of eye balls on this post and I don't want to tell the forum my sources as it would jeopardise selling coins at the prices I do and it's difficult enough to find bargains as it is. Especially with spreads being so low. I’m half tempted to move away from bullion and focus on just numismatic pieces as it isn't economical working on the spreads I am at the moment on the bullion side.

Adam, I do not want to know your supplier or margins but I really want to know as a customer is you’ve checked it. Sorry to carry on, but weight, dimensions and knowledge doesn’t cut it. 
Sigma takes a second and should be standard practise for business dealers and this wouldn’t have happened.