Sovereign Problem

[bobski]

1 minute ago, Spyder said:

I have a question, ''Why would Atkinson pay £200 for a coin they think is plated''.  I have never known a jeweller that would take a gamble of £200 if they thought it was plated.  What is the point of a £15k machine if it can not tell the difference between a solid gold coin and one plated.  

Question for the buyer, if you had doubts about the coin, did you inform the seller before deciding to post to Atkinson?  This would have saved you postage. If you posted additional coins to sell, then no real extra postage fees occurred apart from one package for the return.  

THIS 👆

[SeverinDigsSovereigns]

2 hours ago, Orpster said:

 

Comparing this picture to another 1876S, no real alarm bells except the colour palette so a great spot and bump of intuition @VeracityM

Though the picture from Atkinsons is a bigger alarm

 

What I also notice fron the OP's picture is that there are dark shades around the legend. This usually happens when the coin is chemically treated. It's possiblly a fake, but other possibilities include gold-plated OR dipped in nitric acid which removed some of the copper.

Acid test uses nitric acid which can react with copper if strong enough. If the coin has been acid-tested in the past,  I'd imagine some copper went away. 

It's not weak in detail, and what are the incentives of faking an 1876s with more gold than the real thing? KE7 and KG5 were heavily faked in the ME because they needed a ok-ish currency. Those fakes were of about right amount of gold and only featured the Kings because ME guys didn't want women (Vic) on the coins. It's not a rare date either, and I don't see the economic motive of faking this one...

But I can be wrong. Best to send it Chards for a thorough look, of if the OP is happy to keep it he can make it into a jewellery piece.

[modofantasma]

2 hours ago, VeracityM said:

So, Guys ..... 'The Drama Coin' will be auctioned on the forum next week when I get it back from Atkinsons - which will go some way to covering my numerous shipping expenses and wasted day at work

 

You could auction something else like a 1 Oz silver Brit and the winning bidder gets 'free' the suspect sov? 

[VeracityM]

4 minutes ago, Spyder said:

I have a question, ''Why would Atkinson pay £200 for a coin they think is plated''.  I have never known a jeweller that would take a gamble of £200 if they thought it was plated.  What is the point of a £15k machine if it can not tell the difference between a solid gold coin and one plated.  

Question for the buyer, if you had doubts about the coin, did you inform the seller before deciding to post to Atkinson?  This would have saved you postage. If you posted additional coins to sell, then no real extra postage fees occurred apart from one package for the return.  

Apologies - they will pay £200 scrap value if they cut it and it proves to be solid

They won't pay anything if they cut it and it proves too be other metal

[bobski]

Current scrap value of sovereign is £376 

[Spyder]

Just now, VeracityM said:

Apologies - they will pay £200 scrap value if they cut it and it proves to be solid

They won't pay anything if they cut it and it proves too be other metal

If it turns out to be solid then they are crooks as the coin would be worth at least £375 scrap

[SlowFrog]

3 minutes ago, SeverinDigsSovereigns said:

What I also notice fron the OP's picture is that there are dark shades around the legend. This usually happens when the coin is chemically treated. It's possiblly a fake, but other possibilities include gold-plated OR dipped in nitric acid which removed some of the copper.

Acid test uses nitric acid which can react with copper if strong enough. If the coin has been acid-tested in the past,  I'd imagine some copper went away. 

It's not weak in detail, and what are the incentives of faking an 1876s with more gold than the real thing? KE7 and KG5 were heavily faked in the ME because they needed a ok-ish currency. Those fakes were of about right amount of gold and only featured the Kings because ME guys didn't want women (Vic) on the coins. It's not a rare date either, and I don't see the economic motive of faking this one...

But I can be wrong. Best to send it Chards for a thorough look, of if the OP is happy to keep it he can make it into a jewellery piece.

I think you raise a couple of really good points. Especially not sure why anyone would fake an 1876 with more gold and this degree of accuracy. If you're gonna invest your time doing it, I'm thinking there'd be plenty of better options. Still, who knows, maybe it's precisely because no one would suspect it! 

[James32]

2 minutes ago, bobski said:

Current scrap value of sovereign is £376 

That's spot price, scrap value is a tad less. I guess Atkinsons are partially factoring in refinery costs and partially taking the p1ss lol

[SeverinDigsSovereigns]

1 minute ago, SlowFrog said:

I think you raise a couple of really good points. Especially not sure why anyone would fake an 1876 with more gold and this degree of accuracy. If you're gonna invest your time doing it, I'm thinking there'd be plenty of better options. Still, who knows, maybe it's precisely because no one would suspect it! 

But you lose money faking this one... or maybe someone was a massive gold bug like everyone here on TSF

[Sovhead]

2 minutes ago, SlowFrog said:

I think you raise a couple of really good points. Especially not sure why anyone would fake an 1876 with more gold and this degree of accuracy. If you're gonna invest your time doing it, I'm thinking there'd be plenty of better options. Still, who knows, maybe it's precisely because no one would suspect it! 

And plenty of them.

[bobski]

Just now, James32 said:

That's spot price, scrap value is a tad less. I guess Atkinsons are partially factoring in refinery costs and partially taking the p1ss lol

Yes, sorry mate. Thanks for the added clarification . It was 376 worth of gold. Obviously a bit less due to costs

[VeracityM]

2 minutes ago, Spyder said:

If it turns out to be solid then they are crooks as the coin would be worth at least £375 scrap

This wasn't their 'in writing offer' - this was just the woman tasked with calling me to give the news that they believed the coin to be fake  - I have no expertise in how Atkinsons operate.

I probably didn't ask the right questions, as I didn't know wtf to say to them, all I could think of was 'I hope they don't think I'm trying to screw them over with fake coins'.

She didn't seem to have the authority to make me an offer, an I guessed that she was just making a guess herself.

I got the impression that if I had have authorised them to cut it or buy it, then there would have been a considered decision made by someone authorised to make offers and I would have had to wait for another phone call for that. 

There were a number of phone call following that initial surprise / shock call.

I have never bought a fake coin before, I have zero experience in doing so.

 

 

[VeracityM]

12 minutes ago, James32 said:

That's spot price, scrap value is a tad less. I guess Atkinsons are partially factoring in refinery costs and partially taking the p1ss lol

Youre correct James, she said they would not trust the gold content (I think that's in the email I posted to the first page of this thread) of the coin and they would refine it. They would have cost in doing that.

Edited December 8, 2023 by VeracityM

[Spyder]

1 minute ago, VeracityM said:

This wasn't their 'in writing offer' - this was just the woman tasked with calling me to give the news that they believed the coin to be fake  - I have no expertise in how Atkinsons operate.

I probably didn't ask the right questions, as I didn't know wtf to say to them, all I could think of was 'I hope they don't think I'm trying to screw them over with fake coins'.

She didn't seem to have the authority to make me an offer, an I guessed that she was just making a guess herself.

I got the impression that if I had have authorised them to cut it or buy it, then there would have been a considered decision made by someone authorised to make offers and I would have had to wait for another phone call for that. 

There were a number of phone call following that initial surprise / shock call.

I have never bought a fake coin before, I have zero experience in doing so.

 

 

Reading the thread from the top, you do not say any of this. I can only go by what you write.  

You have not answered what made you suspicious of this coin or was it only the case when Atkinson told you.   You said you do not want them to think you are trying to sell them fake coins and ruin your reputation with them.  (Why would they think this is you only sent it in to get tested?).   

[VeracityM]

2 minutes ago, Spyder said:

Reading the thread from the top, you do not say any of this. I can only go by what you write.  

You have not answered what made you suspicious of this coin or was it only the case when Atkinson told you.   You said you do not want them to think you are trying to sell them fake coins and ruin your reputation with them.  (Why would they think this is you only sent it in to get tested?).   

So as I said in previous thread messages - I sent it to sell to them as I knew they would test it. I don't know anyone with a sigma machine. I also said on the thread to 'Pixie' that I just had a feeling that the coin was strange - it had a matt colour to it and unusual patina on it.

[VeracityM]

8 hours ago, VeracityM said:

it was coloured different - not just usual patina of old sovs - it had a matt finish - though, to be fair, my consciousness can't really pinpoint what it was - it was a 'feeling' 😉 😄 

page 1 .... @Spyder

[NGMD]

I have to admit a very interesting read and educational.👍

Drill a hole through it before sending it to Chards- it’s going in the pot anyway.

Last Question and Concerning-Did the seller actually verify his stock coming in before selling onwards?

[VeracityM]

7 hours ago, VeracityM said:

Just received from Atkinsons:

 

Thank you for sending your 1876 Sovereign coin to us.

 

As discussed, this has been tested on our Niton XRF Analyser and I have attached the results above for you.

 

An authentic Young Head Sovereign should be 91.67% gold, but as you will see, the reading is testing too high at 97%.
This could be due to the coin being heavily gold-plated and because of this we cannot be certain that the centre of the coin is gold.

 

We therefore believe this to be a copy Sovereign. These are sometimes found to be used in jewellery, generally in 9ct or 18ct gold. 

 

Unfortunately, this coin is not something we would purchase without having it melted to ascertain its true purity of gold.

 

If you have any queries, then please do not hesitate to contact me.

 

and they say here: 

Unfortunately, this coin is not something we would purchase without having it melted to ascertain its true purity of gold.

@Spyder

[VeracityM]

5 minutes ago, NGMD said:

I have to admit a very interesting read and educational.👍

Drill a hole through it before sending it to Chards- it’s going in the pot anyway.

Last Question and Concerning-Did the seller actually verify his stock coming in before selling onwards?

Good question - we can ask the seller about that @AdamDutton as I haven't thought to ask that?

[VeracityM]

well gotta retire from this thread as I have spent some hours on this now and its bedtime.

Tomorrow I'm gonna be working - trying to make up for today 😄 

Thank you all for your input - I have learned a great deal, its been a curiosity for sure

xx

[AdamDutton]

7 minutes ago, VeracityM said:

well gotta retire from this thread as I have spent some hours on this now and its bedtime.

Tomorrow I'm gonna be working - trying to make up for today 😄 

Thank you all for your input - I have learned a great deal, its been a curiosity for sure

xx

I've been inbetween socialising and messaging you back. When I am back home I will reply to your latest message.

[Spyder]

9 minutes ago, VeracityM said:

well gotta retire from this thread as I have spent some hours on this now and its bedtime.

Tomorrow I'm gonna be working - trying to make up for today 😄 

Thank you all for your input - I have learned a great deal, its been a curiosity for sure

xx

Thank you for answering all the questions asked.

[Sovhead]

Just now, AdamDutton said:

I've been inbetween socialising and messaging you back. When I am back home I will reply to your latest message.

Can you bump the thread when you sold it to see the pics they might shed some light on the colour of the coin 👍🏻

[SeverinDigsSovereigns]

26 minutes ago, Sovhead said:

Can you bump the thread when you sold it to see the pics they might shed some light on the colour of the coin 👍🏻

I don't think you can see pics if the sales thread is closed...

[James32]

1 minute ago, SeverinDigsSovereigns said:

I don't think you can see pics if the sales thread is closed...

Pictures still show.