Is This a Red Flag?

[SilverJacks]

Does anyone know if this is just die flow lines, or something that brings the authenticity into question?

It’s already with NGC, will post results in a couple months. Any opinion would be appreciated as I’m looking at another raw coin with similar lines on it. Wondering whether to buy or avoid… or not look into it too much…

 

[SilverJacks]

[dicker]

This is a coin that @GoldDiggerDave and I were privately talking about a couple of days back.

I personally find it exceptionally hard to identify genuine from high quality counterfeits.  It is one of the only coins I have sent for grading.  

Best

Dicker

[GoldDiggerDave]

I'll stick my neck out and say the 1929  its likely to be a countfit and I'm perfectly happy to be wrong.  There is a lack of detail IMO in the feathered head gear, and a few telltale what look like raised spikes on the surface.  

 

 

 

[SilverJacks]

Yeah it's such a tricky coin. It can cause anyone problems, even the more experienced collectors such as yourself.

Looking at the lines, they aren't restricted to the back of the neck area, like the more common red flags. Hopefully it's just die flow...

My thinking is that if it comes back genuine, I will know not to worry about this characteristic. If it comes back in a body bag, I will avoid this in future but it's a shame NGC don't offer any further detail when it comes to "not genuine" coins. Time will tell...

 

[SilverJacks]

Thanks for your input Dave. I have a bad feeling about it also. I Will report back result but won't raise my hopes/expectations in the meantime...

[GoldDiggerDave]

There is a bit of information on these on the NGC website hey have a few different years.   I had a fake and a genuine one in hand and they are difficult to see the difference, unless you know the identifiers fr each year of coin. 

Hope it goes well, and like i said I'm happy to be wrong,  

[Mrpound]

I’ve got a feeling I’ve read somewhere that one in every five Indian heads Ngc receives are fake, don’t quote me exactly on those numbers but it was something mind boggling like that, my fingers are crossed for you it’s comes back genuine 👍 I can’t comment on if it’s a fake or not as these particular US coins stump me unfortunately, very difficult too tell a good fake from a genuine one, fingers crossed 🤞 

[GoldDiggerDave]

This is a good read for counterfeit American coins loads of pictures and commentary on each coin

https://www.money.org/uploads/Counterfeit Detection Vol.2.pdf

[SidS]

I absolutely love these coins, but they're a pain to grade and it's almost impossible to decide if they're genuine. A total headache really. But the design is just awesome.

[dicker]

These coins are (in the US) also sometimes altered (Mint mark) as some are rare. Beautiful coins but just be careful!

[GoldDiggerDave]

3 hours ago, SidS said:

I absolutely love these coins, but they're a pain to grade and it's almost impossible to decide if they're genuine. A total headache really. But the design is just awesome.

Agree they are hard to grade due to the incuse design so its a case of trying to get one with the least amount of surface contact marks, I really do love American gold especially the $1 gold coins it pains me to think just how many of these would have been dropped at lost being such a small coin.  

Its was a true reflection of how much $1 was worth 1.53g of gold..... $95.13 of gold today in dollars.      All anyone needs to see how much fiat has lost.  

[SidS]

4 minutes ago, GoldDiggerDave said:

Agree they are hard to grade due to the incuse design so its a case of trying to get one with the least amount of surface contact marks, I really do love American gold especially the $1 gold coins it pains me to think just how many of these would have been dropped at lost being such a small coin.  

Its was a true reflection of how much $1 was worth 1.53g of gold..... $95.13 of gold today in dollars.      All anyone needs to see how much fiat has lost.  

Totally agree!

[n1k0s]

Did you already check its weight, size and ping?

[SilverJacks]

3 hours ago, n1k0s said:

Did you already check its weight, size and ping?

Weight and diameter were ok, but didn't check ping. I also looked for unusual depressions & raised bumps, & compared to some known sources for diagnostics.

There's something about the lines, they sort of reflect what I can only describe as a frosty looking lustre. The optimist in me was saying, "maybe it's a worn die, which would also account for any weakness in design. This is a green flag"

The realist in me says "it just looks a bit odd and is likely a red flag. I don't really understand if this could be a characteristic of a fake coin, be it struck or cast, but when it comes back in a body bag it can be studied a bit further to try and learn something from it, along with any other problems to identify"

For the record, I don't literally have voices in my head 😵 

[SilverJacks]

🙂

[Mrpound]

10 minutes ago, SilverJacks said:

🙂

Brilliant result!

[SilverJacks]

Thanks for rooting for me guys…

I was thinking about starting a new topic on this coin, and my amateur diagnostics but idk..

how the thing can look so different from one light to another is crazy. although it did have conservation tbf to the slab pics…

[Britannia47]

Panic over - Now you can relax! @SilverJacks

Here are a few extra bits from Mike Fuljenz’s book ‘Indian Gold Coins of the 20th Century’…..

 

Edited September 6, 2023 by Britannia47

[SilverJacks]

Thanks @Britannia47. That book looks interesting. Does it feature diagnostics for counterfeits/genuine specimens? 

 A gem would've added a zero on the end of its value! But I can be pleased with a choice unc... Its frosty lustre and signs of die wear make it an interesting coin to me and served as another lesson learned 🙂

[Britannia47]

19 minutes ago, SilverJacks said:

Thanks @Britannia47. That book looks interesting. Does it feature diagnostics for counterfeits/genuine specimens? 

 A gem would've added a zero on the end of its value! But I can be pleased with a choice unc... Its frosty lustre and signs of die wear make it an interesting coin to me and served as another lesson learned 🙂

Looks like you've been lucky.

Nothing on fake diagnostics unfortunately, but Fuljenz does acknowledge that "Counterfeit gold coins imported from China are a growing concern to the numismatic community"...

Nice coin.