Is collecting fakes a thing?

[Widsith]

I am getting quite a few now. Some seem rather old. I got a G IV onefrom ebay that I flagged as a 'forgery' and was refunded immediately. But was it a modern or older fake? How can that be found?

[Widsith]

I am happy to collect them for a project I have in mind.

 

[Widsith]

Is there a coin equivalent to stamp 'Cinderellas'? The thing with silver, they all have inherent value I s'pose.

[Zhorro]

4 minutes ago, Widsith said:

I am getting quite a few now. Some seem rather old. I got a G IV onefrom ebay that I flagged as a 'forgery' and was refunded immediately. But was it a modern or older fake? How can that be found?

Can you show a picture of it?

Quite a number of older forgeries of older sovereigns are very good, and are worth studying.  Often modern forgeries are not very good - but I am sure there are exceptions to the rule.

[Zhorro]

2 minutes ago, Widsith said:

Is there a coin equivalent to stamp 'Cinderellas'? The thing with silver, they all have inherent value I s'pose.

If it is silver...

[AppleZippoandMetronome]

I would imagine given how many people are into coins that there is probably someone out there who collects fakes. Even if not there is value in keeping an active database of fakes. Whilst a lot of fakes are easy to spot there are some - as other replies have mentioned - that are very, very good and worthy of documenting. This being said I really don't know if such a database exists.

[Skyfiller]

I have a good collection of fake old pound coins that I used to train staff with. Never thought there would be a collector’s market! Hadn’t touched it for years but added a fake ‘new’ 2 pound coin I got the other day.

[dicker]

@skyfiller you are not the only one!

http://www.thefakepoundcoindatabase.co.uk

 

[GoldStandardPartyUK]

I report them. I believe it's against ebay terms of use to sell counterfeit currency, I've reported dozens of fake bullion bars being sold as "replica" or some variant, ebay never get back to me about this 

In my opinion it should be treated like how we treat ammunition or dangerous chemicals, or hog weed plants, where each instance is logged somewhere and accounted for, destroyed if not explicitly needed. To just sell them on eBay is outrageous, my understanding is it's

1) against eBay Terms to sell any counterfeit bullion or currency, of any kind, 

2) and its actually illegal if the fake currency is in scope for the 1981 counterfeit currency law (this covers new money only I believe, I think pre decimal coins are out of scope)

@SkyfillerI don't know if you should hand those into the police?

Basically it's like starting a forum thread "is it okay if I start collecting bombs" -   from me it's a no

[SilverMike]

5 hours ago, dicker said:

@skyfiller you are not the only one!

http://www.thefakepoundcoindatabase.co.uk

 

Great website, thank you. Very interesting and informative.

[Skyfiller]

23 hours ago, GoldStandardPartyUK said:

I report them. I believe it's against ebay terms of use to sell counterfeit currency, I've reported dozens of fake bullion bars being sold as "replica" or some variant, ebay never get back to me about this 

In my opinion it should be treated like how we treat ammunition or dangerous chemicals, or hog weed plants, where each instance is logged somewhere and accounted for, destroyed if not explicitly needed. To just sell them on eBay is outrageous, my understanding is it's

1) against eBay Terms to sell any counterfeit bullion or currency, of any kind, 

2) and its actually illegal if the fake currency is in scope for the 1981 counterfeit currency law (this covers new money only I believe, I think pre decimal coins are out of scope)

@SkyfillerI don't know if you should hand those into the police?

Basically it's like starting a forum thread "is it okay if I start collecting bombs" -   from me it's a no

I do quite a bit with the police and they are not interested in these. They kinda have more important things to worry about! None had seen a fake £2 coin though and were surprised as it obviously takes a bit of manufacturing. Will see if thefakepoundcoindatabase want them unless @LawrenceChard wants them for his growing collection?

In answer to your last question, yes that's fine. I know a lot of people who collect bombs and you wouldn't believe the money some of the rare ones go for! I don't personally collect bombs but I used to have the largest collection of 30mm RARDEN ammunition. Sold the whole collection a few years ago as there was literally no other variations or experimental versions left to collect and it got a bit boring then but I still help EOD/EOC out occasionally with identifications.

I do still collect these though 🙂

 

Anyway, back on topic. I believe the royal mint tried to protect the name 'sovereign' in court a few years back and failed http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Ch/2017/417.html and anyone can legally make a coin and call it a sovereign. It doesn't have to be gold. So what we perceive as fake gold sovereigns being sold from china and the likes are actually legit sovereigns (if they call them a sovereign, and they can because they are allowed to) made from a base metal and gold plated. It would therefore only fall on the wrong side of the law if you intentionally tried to pass it off as a different metal than it was actually made from? I believe, although I could be wrong, that the dragon design would also not be under copywrite due to the age of it (from memory 50 years after the artist has died.... or something like that)??

[LawrenceChard]

On 28/09/2021 at 20:24, Widsith said:

I am getting quite a few now. Some seem rather old. I got a G IV onefrom ebay that I flagged as a 'forgery' and was refunded immediately. But was it a modern or older fake? How can that be found?

I am sure ebay don't care, they make profit out of them, and it would cost resources to police their listings, unless someone complains, but even then, they still don't care. I suspect most ebay sellers with fakes know that they are selling are fakes.

On 28/09/2021 at 20:33, Zhorro said:

Quite a number of older forgeries of older sovereigns are very good, and are worth studying.  Often modern forgeries are not very good - but I am sure there are exceptions to the rule.

Fakes are definitely worth studying, especially if you don't want to end up owning any you paid a genuine price for.

On 28/09/2021 at 23:40, AppleZippoandMetronome said:

I would imagine given how many people are into coins that there is probably someone out there who collects fakes. Even if not there is value in keeping an active database of fakes. Whilst a lot of fakes are easy to spot there are some - as other replies have mentioned - that are very, very good and worthy of documenting. This being said I really don't know if such a database exists.

This old (2009) page mentions Ken Peters of The Counterfeit Coin Club:

https://24carat.co.uk/frame.php?url=fakepoundcoins.html

Although I do not know if he  / they are still around.

On 29/09/2021 at 00:47, Skyfiller said:

I have a good collection of fake old pound coins that I used to train staff with. Never thought there would be a collector’s market! Hadn’t touched it for years but added a fake ‘new’ 2 pound coin I got the other day.

In that sense, many people do have a collection of fake coins.

24 minutes ago, Skyfiller said:

I do quite a bit with the police and they are not interested in these. They kinda have more important things to worry about! None had seen a fake £2 coin though and were surprised as it obviously takes a bit of manufacturing. Will see if thefakepoundcoindatabase want them unless @LawrenceChard wants them for his growing collection?

Anyway, back on topic. I believe the royal mint tried to protect the name 'sovereign' in court a few years back and failed http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Ch/2017/417.html and anyone can legally make a coin and call it a sovereign. It doesn't have to be gold. So what we perceive as fake gold sovereigns being sold from china and the likes are actually legit sovereigns (if they call them a sovereign, and they can because they are allowed to) made from a base metal and gold plated. It would therefore only fall on the wrong side of the law if you intentionally tried to pass it off as a different metal than it was actually made from? I believe, although I could be wrong, that the dragon design would also not be under copywrite due to the age of it (from memory 50 years after the artist has died.... or something like that)??

The thefakepoundcoindatabase does list other coins on its database. At least I think so from seeing a 7 sided Flopsy Bunny on its front page. 😎

Even though the RM lost its "sovereign" legal case, it does not mean that just anyone can make a sovereign without some legitimate cover, without risking prosecution for forgery or fraud. If it looked like a genuine UK gold sovereign, it would certainly be hard to defend.

China, and a few other countries do not care about counterfeiting or copying, indeed it is possibly state sponsored or even subsidised.

 

[Skyfiller]

35 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

I am sure ebay don't care, they make profit out of them, and it would cost resources to police their listings, unless someone complains, but even then, they still don't care. I suspect most ebay sellers with fakes know that they are selling are fakes.

Fakes are definitely worth studying, especially if you don't want to end up owning any you paid a genuine price for.

This old (2009) page mentions Ken Peters of The Counterfeit Coin Club:

https://24carat.co.uk/frame.php?url=fakepoundcoins.html

Although I do not know if he  / they are still around.

In that sense, many people do have a collection of fake coins.

The thefakepoundcoindatabase does list other coins on its database. At least I think so from seeing a 7 sided Flopsy Bunny on its front page. 😎

Even though the RM lost its "sovereign" legal case, it does not mean that just anyone can make a sovereign without some legitimate cover, without risking prosecution for forgery or fraud. If it looked like a genuine UK gold sovereign, it would certainly be hard to defend.

China, and a few other countries do not care about counterfeiting or copying, indeed it is possibly state sponsored or even subsidised.

 

I stand corrected Lawrence 🙂

The sovereign is protected under the The Forgery and Counterfeiting Act 1981 as it has been specified in an Order by the Treasury. 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/194220/guidance_coinage_banknotes.pdf

[Mrpound]

I have four really good fakes, which caught me out when I was green to all this, thankfully nothing too expensive,

I've got a fake Morgan and fake peace and two fake Scottsdale mint bars.

I wouldn’t say I collect them but I like keeping them around as a reminder to always be vigilant 😎

[LawrenceChard]

10 minutes ago, Skyfiller said:

I stand corrected Lawrence 🙂

The sovereign is protected under the The Forgery and Counterfeiting Act 1981 as it has been specified in an Order by the Treasury. 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/194220/guidance_coinage_banknotes.pdf

Thanks for including the link.

We (Chards) did get a nice letter a few years ago, inviting us to inform and apply if we made, sold, etc, any fake or imitation coins or money, and I think the link you included is the same we were given at the time.

It is probably time I re-read it. My basic understanding of couterfeiting law goes back before 1981, probably starting around 1963/4, and getting refreshed on the 1970s

[paulmerton]

I imagine everyone would benefit from having a few known fakes so they know what kind of things to look out for.

Is it legal to buy and own counterfeit coins if you know, or suspect, them to be counterfeit? Would it be legal to import the same?

[greendragon]

2 hours ago, paulmerton said:

I imagine everyone would benefit from having a few known fakes so they know what kind of things to look out for.

Is it legal to buy and own counterfeit coins if you know, or suspect, them to be counterfeit? Would it be legal to import the same?

i am not sure , but i seem to recall reading that it is an offence to POST fake goods?

sending fake coins through royal mail may land you in trouble?

[Mrpound]

Here’s my fakes 🤮

[LawrenceChard]

7 hours ago, Skyfiller said:

I do still collect these though 🙂

 

Q: Where can you park them?

A: Wherever you like. 😎

[dicker]

I think the counterfeit one pound coins will be interesting to collect in the years to come but not hugely valuable.  
 

They range from terrible to pretty good.  

[paulmerton]

8 hours ago, Skyfiller said:

 

I do still collect these though 🙂

Wow, what a collection! I remember buying a RARDEN round from the tank museum shop several years ago (probably for the same price as a 1oz silver maple to keep things topical) but I have no idea what type it is, let alone how many different ones there were!

Is that a Peak Engineering turret on the FV432?

[Skyfiller]

2 hours ago, paulmerton said:

Wow, what a collection! I remember buying a RARDEN round from the tank museum shop several years ago (probably for the same price as a 1oz silver maple to keep things topical) but I have no idea what type it is, let alone how many different ones there were!

Is that a Peak Engineering turret on the FV432?

It most certainly is 😃 👍🏻

[Zhorro]

On 28/09/2021 at 20:25, Widsith said:

I am happy to collect them for a project I have in mind.

 

I think this is the only fake sovereign I have in my collection - it is dated 1819 !

[GoldStandardPartyUK]

Why aren't we talking about how to destroy these or hand them to police?

[paulmerton]

2 minutes ago, GoldStandardPartyUK said:

Why aren't we talking about how to destroy these or hand them to police?

I think they did?