1917 Sovereign

[xthomasx]

Hi all,

An Austrian auction will be offering a 1917 Sovereign next month. Probably everyone would agree that it can't be genuine. What do you think is it? A mintmark manipulation maybe?

https://www.sixbid.com/de/auktionen-fruehwald/8579/-/7148406/grossbritannien-george-v-1910

 

[Airhead]

Whilst I would not say I am an expert, as far as I know if it is from the London mint then there will not be a mint mark. Only those minted in the (as then) colonies will have mint marks. Someone will be along soon to give a definitive answer, but it looks ok to me.

[Roy]

The 1917 London sovereign is very rare. It's not beyond the capabilities of an unscrupulous seller to 'modify' the mintmark of a colonial sovereign to give the appearance of no mintmark suggesting a London mint issue.

[xthomasx]

5 minutes ago, Airhead said:

Whilst I would not say I am an expert, as far as I know if it is from the London mint then there will not be a mint mark. Only those minted in the (as then) colonies will have mint marks. Someone will be along soon to give a definitive answer, but it looks ok to me.

The 1917 London Sovereign is one of the rarest pieces around. Although 1 million were made, only a one-digit number survived, and they sell for five-digit sums, if not more. That's what came to my attention immediately. Branch mint 1917 sovereigns are plentiful, so skillfully filing away the mintmark to create a London (no mintmark) impression would be my assumption. 

[xthomasx]

Someone was typing faster 😉

[AndrewSL76]

54 minutes ago, Roy said:

The 1917 London sovereign is very rare. It's not beyond the capabilities of an unscrupulous seller to 'modify' the mintmark of a colonial sovereign to give the appearance of no mintmark suggesting a London mint issue.

Agreed, but note that the mintmark is not the only distinguishing feature. Some also have a little line around the edge of the coin where the gold paper meets to cover the chocolate. I fear this coin would not survive the bite test. 

[LawrenceChard]

On 14/06/2021 at 13:53, xthomasx said:

Hi all,

An Austrian auction will be offering a 1917 Sovereign next month. Probably everyone would agree that it can't be genuine. What do you think is it? A mintmark manipulation maybe?

https://www.sixbid.com/de/auktionen-fruehwald/8579/-/7148406/grossbritannien-george-v-1910

 

With such a minimalistic description, and the total lack of photos, I think this is highly suspicious.

It could be someone who knows almost nothing about coins, but is more likely to be a scammer.

(Perhaps one who has been kicked off ebay) ☺️

It might be an idea to alert sixbid to the suspicions.

Many people might refrain from this if they were hoping they were going to get lucky and buy a £10K coin for £500. (Greed and fear).

Edited March 31, 2022 by LawrenceChard
typos

[pricha]

A trip to NGC would surely provide the answer. If it was been fiddled with then just return it and ask for your money back, easy .  🤣 

[Zhorro]

1 hour ago, LawrenceChard said:

With such a minimalistic description, and the total lack of photos, I think this is hightly suspcious.

It could be someone who knows a;most nothing about coins, but is more likely to be a scammer.

(Perhaps one who has been kicked off ebay) ☺️

It might be an idea to alert sixbid to the suspicions.

Many people might refrain from this if they were hoping they were going to get lucky and buy a £10K coin for £500. (Greed and fear).

Now there is a photograph of the coin.  There does not seem to be much detail on the dragon.

[LawrenceChard]

21 minutes ago, Zhorro said:

Now there is a photograph of the coin.  There does not seem to be much detail on the dragon.

I have seen worse, but it is an obvious fake.

Whoever FRÜHWALD are, they should be ashamed of themselves.

[LawrenceChard]

20 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

I have seen worse, but it is an obvious fake.

Whoever FRÜHWALD are, they should be ashamed of themselves.

I have alerted both FRÜHWALD and Sixbid.

I found it slightly odd that Sixbid seem reluctant to receive fake and fraud alerts directly:

"Do you have a question about an auction on Sixbid, lots displayed, buying or selling coins, the status of your bids in an auction or payment for an auction?

Please contact the affected Auctioneer directly."

That's rather like ebay saying contact the seller directly.

 

[pricha]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/284290221375?hash=item423104853f:g:0EQAAOSw075gmZOx  

This one sold as London Mint ....   as in London Mint Office 😆 Nice try

Edited June 14, 2021 by pricha

[LawrenceChard]

2 hours ago, pricha said:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/284290221375?hash=item423104853f:g:0EQAAOSw075gmZOx  

This one sold as London Mint ....   as in London Mint Office 😆 Nice try

Sounds like ebay member stephanderson555 is yet another ebay crook, unless he is so stupid, he really does not know the difference.

"1917 King George V London Mint Gold Full Sovereign"

Nobody is likely to have alerted ebay to this fraudulent and misleading description, but even if they did, I think ebay staff would also be so stupid, they would not understand the difference, and neither ebay nor they would care.

Do I sound ever so slightly cynical?

[LawrenceChard]

3 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

I have alerted both FRÜHWALD and Sixbid.

I found it slightly odd that Sixbid seem reluctant to receive fake and fraud alerts directly:

"Do you have a question about an auction on Sixbid, lots displayed, buying or selling coins, the status of your bids in an auction or payment for an auction?

Please contact the affected Auctioneer directly."

That's rather like ebay saying contact the seller directly.

 

I was pleasantly surprised to get an e-mail reply from Dr. Winfried Frühwald, saying he would show to coin to both Rauch and Künker, and withdraw the coin from auction if they agree with my opinion, which I am sure they will.

[LawrenceChard]

7 hours ago, AndrewSL76 said:

Agreed, but note that the mintmark is not the only distinguishing feature. Some also have a little line around the edge of the coin where the gold paper meets to cover the chocolate. I fear this coin would not survive the bite test. 

The test you mention is always optimally performed at 2.30 🙂

[silenceissilver]

2 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

I was pleasantly surprised to get an e-mail reply from Dr. Winfried Frühwald, saying he would show to coin to both Rauch and Künker, and withdraw the coin from auction if they agree with my opinion, which I am sure they will.

I don't know who Rauch is, but Kuenker must be this numismatic dealer:

https://www.kuenker.de/en

When I search for Sovereign on this German price comparison site, they don't show up but given they are specialised in numismatics, they might not have applied to be listed there, as they would always be at the bottom end of the search results anyway. I was looking because if they were listed there, it would be a good indication that they are reputable dealers. I'm not saying they aren't but my search hasn't confirm it.

https://www.gold-preisvergleich.de/gold/goldmuenzen/sovereign/#!sale,143,0

Edited June 14, 2021 by silenceissilver

[LawrenceChard]

17 hours ago, silenceissilver said:

I don't know who Rauch is, but Kuenker must be this numismatic dealer:

https://www.kuenker.de/en

When I search for Sovereign on this German price comparison site, they don't show up but given they are specialised in numismatics, they might not have applied to be listed there, as they would always be at the bottom end of the search results anyway. I was looking because if they were listed there, it would be a good indication that they are reputable dealers. I'm not saying they aren't but my search hasn't confirm it.

https://www.gold-preisvergleich.de/gold/goldmuenzen/sovereign/#!sale,143,0

Kuenker are a major German and European numismatic auction house, they do also hold stock of coins as dealers.

I had never heard of Rauch before, but they are in Vienna, and Kuenker also have an office in Vienna, so it sounds like Frühwald can easily get a second and third opinion, or third and fourth opinion, if you count mine.

Edited June 15, 2021 by LawrenceChard
typos

[AndrewSL76]

If Kuenker want to send me the coin and a small fee, I am happy to give an opinion for them. I would also need them to pay for me to spend a few decades studying sovereigns full time, immersing myself to be able to give that opinion. I hope everyone can wait till 2045 (ish) for the news? Otherwise it’s just more and more silly chocolate coin jokes........

Kuenker, you know where to find me.

[LawrenceChard]

55 minutes ago, AndrewSL76 said:

If Kuenker want to send me the coin and a small fee, I am happy to give an opinion for them. I would also need them to pay for me to spend a few decades studying sovereigns full time, immersing myself to be able to give that opinion. I hope everyone can wait till 2045 (ish) for the news? Otherwise it’s just more and more silly chocolate coin jokes........

Kuenker, you know where to find me.

There's nothing silly about chocolate coins.

Perhaps we should get some 1917-L ones made, although they would need to be high cocoa content, 91.6% should do it.

I could give the toolmaker one from our stock to copy.

[xthomasx]

All three of them, Künker, Frühwald and Rauch, are reputable auction houses. I have been bidding in their auctions a lot, and I bought from Künker's shop (a batch of slabbed 1 and 2 Rands 🤩, and more). No issues whatsoever. Künker is also among the people behind the Sixbid bidding platform.

I am certain the coin will be withdrawn once they had a look at it. On the other hand, I would likely have bid on it, even knowing it to be fake or manipulated.

[AndrewSL76]

1 minute ago, LawrenceChard said:

There's nothing silly about chocolate coins.

Perhaps we should get some 1917-L ones made, although they would need to be high cocoa content, 91.6% should do it.

I could give the toolmaker one from our stock to copy.

I would buy a tube of chocolate sovereigns! In all seriousness that is a great idea for Christmas!

[LawrenceChard]

13 minutes ago, AndrewSL76 said:

I would buy a tube of chocolate sovereigns! In all seriousness that is a great idea for Christmas!

A chocolate sovereign is not just for Christmas!

[silenceissilver]

8 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

Kuenker are a major German and European numismatic auction house, they do also hold stock of coins as dealers.

I had never heard of Rauch before, but they are in Vienna, and Kuenker also have an office in Vienna, so it sounds like Frühwald can easily a second and third opinion, or third and fourht opinion, if you count mine.

Interesting. I only knew the major European auction house Dorotheum, which is based in Vienna. I sometimes have a look at their online auctions, although, in terms of coins, they don't often have Sovereigns and the like but rather e.g. Thalers.

[silenceissilver]

On 14/06/2021 at 22:26, LawrenceChard said:

I was pleasantly surprised to get an e-mail reply from Dr. Winfried Frühwald, saying he would show to coin to both Rauch and Künker, and withdraw the coin from auction if they agree with my opinion, which I am sure they will.

Has Dr. Winfried Frühwald replied to you again? The coin is not longer online, but it says "best offer accepted" - maybe a diplomatic way to withdraw it? Or has it indeed been sold?

[LawrenceChard]

10 hours ago, silenceissilver said:

Has Dr. Winfried Frühwald replied to you again? The coin is not longer online, but it says "best offer accepted" - maybe a diplomatic way to withdraw it? Or has it indeed been sold?

No, I have not heard further yet, but I do expect to.

Sounds like you are keeping the item under close surveillance.