1917 Sovereign

[LawrenceChard]

On 14/06/2021 at 15:13, AndrewSL76 said:

Agreed, but note that the mintmark is not the only distinguishing feature. Some also have a little line around the edge of the coin where the gold paper meets to cover the chocolate. I fear this coin would not survive the bite test. 

The bite test, on a Gold bar:

[GoldDiggerDave]

On 14/06/2021 at 17:45, Zhorro said:

Now there is a photograph of the coin.  There does not seem to be much detail on the dragon.

He's run out of razors that moustache is way off! 

[LawrenceChard]

On 14/06/2021 at 18:32, LawrenceChard said:

I have alerted both FRÜHWALD and Sixbid.

I found it slightly odd that Sixbid seem reluctant to receive fake and fraud alerts directly:

"Do you have a question about an auction on Sixbid, lots displayed, buying or selling coins, the status of your bids in an auction or payment for an auction?

Please contact the affected Auctioneer directly."

That's rather like ebay saying contact the seller directly.

 

 

On 14/06/2021 at 22:26, LawrenceChard said:

I was pleasantly surprised to get an e-mail reply from Dr. Winfried Frühwald, saying he would show to coin to both Rauch and Künker, and withdraw the coin from auction if they agree with my opinion, which I am sure they will.

 

On 15/06/2021 at 10:55, xthomasx said:

All three of them, Künker, Frühwald and Rauch, are reputable auction houses. I have been bidding in their auctions a lot, and I bought from Künker's shop (a batch of slabbed 1 and 2 Rands 🤩, and more). No issues whatsoever. Künker is also among the people behind the Sixbid bidding platform.

I am certain the coin will be withdrawn once they had a look at it. On the other hand, I would likely have bid on it, even knowing it to be fake or manipulated.

 

On 15/06/2021 at 23:21, silenceissilver said:

Has Dr. Winfried Frühwald replied to you again? The coin is not longer online, but it says "best offer accepted" - maybe a diplomatic way to withdraw it? Or has it indeed been sold?

 

On 16/06/2021 at 09:27, LawrenceChard said:

No, I have not heard further yet, but I do expect to.

Sounds like you are keeping the item under close surveillance.

I had half-forgotten about this until recently, so just sent another e-mail:

 

Dear Winfried,

I recently realised I had not heard from you since your last e-mail in June of last year.

As you will probably understand, I am still very interested to hear the outcome of my intervention, and your enquiries with Rauch and / or Kuenker.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Regards,

Lawrence Chard

Chard (1964) Limited
32 - 36 Harrowside
Blackpool
FY4 1RJ
England, UK.

Tel 0044 (0)1253 343081

[jultorsk]

Interestingly perhaps, that lot 3131 appears to have been passed on their results listing https://www.auktionen-fruehwald.com/ergebnisse/143-saal.pdf

Yet, the Sixbid page does note Ergebnis (=result) as EUR460. Maybe it was sold post-auction? 🤷‍♂️

 

[SidS]

On 23/06/2021 at 18:41, GoldDiggerDave said:

He's run out of razors that moustache is way off! 

Lush I would say. At least it's not a fake tash!

[LawrenceChard]

1 hour ago, LawrenceChard said:

 

 

 

 

I had half-forgotten about this until recently, so just sent another e-mail:

 

Dear Winfried,

I recently realised I had not heard from you since your last e-mail in June of last year.

As you will probably understand, I am still very interested to hear the outcome of my intervention, and your enquiries with Rauch and / or Kuenker.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Regards,

Lawrence Chard

Chard (1964) Limited
32 - 36 Harrowside
Blackpool
FY4 1RJ
England, UK.

Tel 0044 (0)1253 343081

I just received a very quick, but wholly unsatisfactory reply:

"Dear Mr Chard,

 i sold the item.

 Kind regards – Winfried Frühwald"

I will follow it up!

😎

[LawrenceChard]

3 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

I just received a very quick, but wholly unsatisfactory reply:

"Dear Mr Chard,

 i sold the item.

 Kind regards – Winfried Frühwald"

I will follow it up!

😎

I just did:

"Dear Winfried,

Thanks for your very speedy reply, but this leaves more questions unanswered, than it does answered.

 

Did Rauch's and Kuenker's opinions agree with mine?

 

Did you sell it as genuine? Did you sell it as counterfeit?

 

As a numismatist, these answers are important."

😎

 

[Foster88]

2 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

I just received a very quick, but wholly unsatisfactory reply:

"Dear Mr Chard,

 i sold the item.

 Kind regards – Winfried Frühwald"

I will follow it up!

😎

What a short reply.

In other words,

“Dear Mr Chard,

Please go away.

Kind Regards - Winfried Frühwald”

😆

[LawrenceChard]

1 hour ago, Foster88 said:

What a short reply.

In other words,

“Dear Mr Chard,

Please go away.

Kind Regards - Winfried Frühwald”

😆

Yes, indeed. And that is the polite version!

😎

4 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

I just did:

"Dear Winfried,

Thanks for your very speedy reply, but this leaves more questions unanswered, than it does answered.

 

Did Rauch's and Kuenker's opinions agree with mine?

 

Did you sell it as genuine? Did you sell it as counterfeit?

 

As a numismatist, these answers are important."

😎

 

I got a slighly, but not much longer reply:

"I sold is a counterfeit, during the auction"

Even more unsatisfactory IMO.

I sent him yet another polite message:

"Dear Winfried,

Thanks for letting me know.

 

You do realise you owe me a beer, don't you.

 

Steigl will be OK.

Regards."

 

What's the betting on his response?

 

[CollectForFun]

And by the way, how do you like these two? Let me know what you think first and I will then give you more details about where these coins appeared...

 

Edited March 31, 2022 by CollectForFun

[LawrenceChard]

1 hour ago, CollectForFun said:

And by the way, how do you like these two? Let me know what you think first and I will then give you more details about where these coins appeared...

 

I would like to Niton test both of the fakes you have shown.

Vienna or Birmingham?

😎

Edited March 31, 2022 by LawrenceChard

[LawrenceChard]

For future reference:

Still no visual mention or reference to it being fake.

I think the correct and ethical procedure would have been to withdraw the item from the auction.

Of course, this would have sacrificed the seller fees, and any buyer's premium.

Everyone has their price!

😎

[CollectForFun]

14 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

I would like to Niton test both of the fakes you you shown.

Vienna or Birmingham?

😎

You could have purchased them quite recently and have the opportunity to test them 😉

Madrid, Ibercoin auctions, February 2022. Likewise, no mention in the catalogue about them not being genuine, as far as I can tell:

BRITAIN. sovereign. (Aug. 7.97g/22mm). 1917. George V. (Km#820). Good Very Fine.

Starting price: 290 EUR

Fortunately, the bidders knew better and the hammer price reached only EUR 320.

They must have been from the same batch as the Frühwald's one because all seem to have that deep gash in the beard. But it all illustrates that, unfortunately, even well-known auction houses aren't an ultimate guarantee of authenticity...

[LawrenceChard]

16 minutes ago, CollectForFun said:

You could have purchased them quite recently and have the opportunity to test them 😉

Madrid, Ibercoin auctions, February 2022. Likewise, no mention in the catalogue about them not being genuine, as far as I can tell:

BRITAIN. sovereign. (Aug. 7.97g/22mm). 1917. George V. (Km#820). Good Very Fine.

Starting price: 290 EUR

Fortunately, the bidders knew better and the hammer price reached only EUR 320.

They must have been from the same batch as the Frühwald's one because all seem to have that deep gash in the beard. But it all illustrates that, unfortunately, even well-known auction houses aren't an ultimate guarantee of authenticity...

Is there a link to the two lots?

[CollectForFun]

26 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

Is there a link to the two lots?

Sure, here it is:

https://www.ibercoin.com/en/numismatic-auctions/42-Online-Auction-Contemporary-Gold-Coin-23-02-2022/lot-1039-GRAN-BRETAA

https://www.ibercoin.com/en/numismatic-auctions/42-Online-Auction-Contemporary-Gold-Coin-23-02-2022/lot-1040-GRAN-BRETAA

And I must correct my previous words that the auction house did not flag those coins as fake. This is how they were described in Spanish:

GRAN BRETAÑA. Soberano. (Au. 7,96g/22mm). 1917. Jorge V. (Km#820). MBC+. (Copia de joyería y acuñada en oro de 0,900).

I.e., jewellery copy of 0.900 gold. For some reason, the final part did not translate to English version of description provided above, which is what I initially saw on Sixbid. Maybe it was added just later on? So there's another lesson - coin descriptions on Sixbid can be incomplete and misleading...

[LawrenceChard]

10 hours ago, CollectForFun said:

Sure, here it is:

https://www.ibercoin.com/en/numismatic-auctions/42-Online-Auction-Contemporary-Gold-Coin-23-02-2022/lot-1039-GRAN-BRETAA

https://www.ibercoin.com/en/numismatic-auctions/42-Online-Auction-Contemporary-Gold-Coin-23-02-2022/lot-1040-GRAN-BRETAA

And I must correct my previous words that the auction house did not flag those coins as fake. This is how they were described in Spanish:

GRAN BRETAÑA. Soberano. (Au. 7,96g/22mm). 1917. Jorge V. (Km#820). MBC+. (Copia de joyería y acuñada en oro de 0,900).

I.e., jewellery copy of 0.900 gold. For some reason, the final part did not translate to English version of description provided above, which is what I initially saw on Sixbid. Maybe it was added just later on? So there's another lesson - coin descriptions on Sixbid can be incomplete and misleading...

Google translate says "Copy of jewelry and minted in gold of..." I checked it because I wondered what acuñada meant, I should have worked it out, but at least I know now.

Thanks for the links and correction.

Screenshot of lot 1039

Price realised €320

I don't know whether that includes any buyer's premium, and have not checked it against the spot gold price of the day.

[xthomasx]

22 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

Google translate says "Copy of jewelry and minted in gold of..." I checked it because I wondered what acuñada meant, I should have worked it out, but at least I know now.

Thanks for the links and correction.

Screenshot of lot 1039

Price realised €320

I don't know whether that includes any buyer's premium, and have not checked it against the spot gold price of the day.

Interesting. I had seen that Frühwald did not withdraw the lot but entirely missed the Spanish auction's lots. For 320 hammer I would have bought one, I guess.

 

[LawrenceChard]

1 hour ago, xthomasx said:

Interesting. I had seen that Frühwald did not withdraw the lot but entirely missed the Spanish auction's lots. For 320 hammer I would have bought one, I guess.

 

The seller probably lost out, depending on how much commission IberCoin charges, and I could not see what the buyer's premium is, although I did see a figure of 18%. The Terms and Conditions, commissions and fees do not appear to be clearly stated anywhere.