Europeanmint milk-spotted silver coins

[Faiz]

On 10/10/2020 at 17:54, thesongofthunder said:

Holy smokes, that is too long. It can tone the silver if you keep it that long.

It does tone the silver. I've tried it in the past, it won't get the milk spots off. I have not come across any chemical method of removing the spots. Mechanical seems to be the only way. Not something most of us would be comfortable doing, regardless of the grade of the coin. The Lesson, don't buy the coins that have a history of milk spotting. Don't buy from the mints that aren't willing to adopt better production standards. Like others have already said, buy spot free coins and pay a little more if you have to. On the other hand, stack bars, if you are just stacking for the silver weight. This new pattern of buying will soon get back to the mints, and they may just pull there finger out and do something about it. Not holding my breath though. 

[Rll1288]

36 minutes ago, Faiz said:

It does tone the silver. I've tried it in the past, it won't get the milk spots off. I have not come across any chemical method of removing the spots. Mechanical seems to be the only way. Not something most of us would be comfortable doing, regardless of the grade of the coin. The Lesson, don't buy the coins that have a history of milk spotting. Don't buy from the mints that aren't willing to adopt better production standards. Like others have already said, buy spot free coins and pay a little more if you have to. On the other hand, stack bars, if you are just stacking for the silver weight. This new pattern of buying will soon get back to the mints, and they may just pull there finger out and do something about it. Not holding my breath though. 

To be honest I get RM Britannia bullion coins as in the UK they are CGT exempt (for now) and something that for long term investment is my choice.... Therefore I have accepted that over the long term this may happen as well as toning. But to avoid mints that have this issue is not really something that is practical... and for me not a major problem...  I have bought older bullion coins and accepted milk spots as the price paid was fair. However when I get the new 2021 brits i do expect them to be without at time of purchase.

[Faiz]

3 minutes ago, Rll1288 said:

To be honest I get RM Britannia bullion coins as in the UK they are CGT exempt (for now) and something that for long term investment is my choice.... Therefore I have accepted that over the long term this may happen as well as toning. But to avoid mints that have this issue is not really something that is practical... and for me not a major problem...  I have bought older bullion coins and accepted milk spots as the price paid was fair. However when I get the new 2021 brits i do expect them to be without at time of purchase.

Fair point RII1288. As long as individuals are happy with their purchases, nothing else matters. Good luck with the 2021 brits. Let us know how you get on please.  

[Rll1288]

38 minutes ago, Faiz said:

Fair point RII1288. As long as individuals are happy with their purchases, nothing else matters. Good luck with the 2021 brits. Let us know how you get on please.  

Will do..... 👍

[85swat85]

I had milky spot on one Lunar II Tiger from Perth Mint...was in original capsule. I got 11 tiger coins and only one got milky spot, however, I sold all my Lunar II coins right after that. It was in 2012. Good luck to all of you who buys silver bullion coins and don't like milky spots, tarnishing, oxidizing, toning, etc...modern silver is very reactive to environment.

[HawkHybrid]

4 hours ago, HighlandTiger said:

I'm surprised of the number of members, who are just accepting milky coins as "part of being bullion coins". 

Only a few short years ago, when milky coins first started appearing, the stacking world were up in arms about it. Well, the mints andtheir PR teams have done you all up like kippers, because they have now succeeded in getting you lot to accept any old tat.

 

by it's nature silver will tarnish. imperfections is part of life. this is why i accept it as being the truth.

it no longer bothers me that newly minted silver bullion is imperfect as I won't be buying any. in theory

newly minted silver shouldn't be milk spotted, but in a race to the bottom quality has given way to cost

cutting measures. in 2013 the royal mint changed the purity of britannia's from 95.8% to 99.9%. the

minting quality has not kept up with the move. to upgrade the minting process would probably cost

money, which will be passed on to buyers in the form of a higher price. only pre 2013 coins are

mostly non milk spotted/higher quality. you are getting a 4% higher purity coin and the trade off is

a more bullion orientated coin(more imperfections).

this is the choice that the royal mint has taken, those who consider it a deal breaker should choose

something else. there is an art to collecting that comes from a deeper understanding of historical

events.

 

HH 

[Faiz]

3 hours ago, HawkHybrid said:

 

by it's nature silver will tarnish. imperfections is part of life. this is why i accept it as being the truth.

it no longer bothers me that newly minted silver bullion is imperfect as I won't be buying any. in theory

newly minted silver shouldn't be milk spotted, but in a race to the bottom quality has given way to cost

cutting measures. in 2013 the royal mint changed the purity of britannia's from 95.8% to 99.9%. the

minting quality has not kept up with the move. to upgrade the minting process would probably cost

money, which will be passed on to buyers in the form of a higher price. only pre 2013 coins are

mostly non milk spotted/higher quality. you are getting a 4% higher purity coin and the trade off is

a more bullion orientated coin(more imperfections).

this is the choice that the royal mint has taken, those who consider it a deal breaker should choose

something else. there is an art to collecting that comes from a deeper understanding of historical

events.

 

HH 

Thank you for the history lesson

[xmerchant]

On 15/10/2020 at 09:13, Faiz said:

Like others have already said, buy spot free coins and pay a little more if you have to. On the other hand, stack bars, if you are just stacking for the silver weight. 

 

Does milk spotting/toning take off value of a coin and do bars milk/tone or are there any issues I should be aware about bars?

[Coolsmp]

5 hours ago, xmerchant said:

Does milk spotting/toning take off value of a coin and do bars milk/tone or are there any issues I should be aware about bars?

Simple answer, YES! Who wants milky and toned coins. Although some people will like abit of toning depedlnding on bar or coin, usually older ones though. There are ways to reduce the problem and theres loads of previous posts about it on the forum. Just do a search.

[Faiz]

12 hours ago, xmerchant said:

Does milk spotting/toning take off value of a coin and do bars milk/tone or are there any issues I should be aware about bars?

@xmerchant, Milk spotting shouldn't effect the value of bullion grade coins, however, in my experience, it does. No one wants milky coins, @Coolsmp couldn't agree with you more. Without going down the rabbit hole of whether we should accept it because it is bullion grade, I would say that coins are there to be appreciated. How can they be with unsightly stains on them. Some coins can be covered, like they've been dipped in the s**t. As for toning, that's a different matter. As long as you keep the coin in an airtight capsule, it should not tone. Not for a very long time anyway. That's not the case with milking, as coins will milk even when in airtight capsules. I would much rather buy an older toned coin, than a newer milky one. Actually, I would never knowingly buy milky coins, unless it was under spot. In that case, I would send it over to @BackyardBullionto melt down and have one of those gorgeous kilo rolo rounds made . 

As for bars, they tend not to be affected by milking. I find the poured bars to be the least affected. I've yet to see a poured bar with milk stains. I can't say the same about pressed bars, as these are really coins in the shape of a bar. As small pressed bars are made from the same silver sheets as coins, I would imagine that milking could be an issue. The other benefit of a poured bar is that no two bars are the same. They have surface imperfections and I would not think twice about using silver polish to remove any blemishes. However, I wouldn't do that to an antique bar, as the toning usually shows the age of the bar, much like old coins.

Residing in the UK, we should be aware of the Capital Gains Tax (CGT) that is due on the sale of silver bars. This is not the case for Britannia's and other UK legal tender coins., milky or otherwise 😁. I suggest you watch the recent video that @BackyardBullionput out on 1 kilo silver bars.

It was a very good video covering why bars, especially the 1 kilo ones, are so attractive, and fun to play with 🙂.  I hope that helps @xmerchant.

Have a great remaining weekend.

[Rll1288]

My last post on this subject 🙂 ... I agree getting milked bullion straight off is not ideal but I believe but as this could occur sometime after the purchase made its good to understand how to remove if possible. This has happened to me on some 2015 Brit's and I used a plain old rubber to get the marks off. Granted they weren't excessive, but it worked and to me the value is the same as before they got spotted 🤘

[BackyardBullion]

I will happily take and repurpose any milky coins that anyone has 😉

I have a video going live at 5pm with some thoughts and ramblings on this subject including some stern words for the Royal Mint. 

[xmerchant]

52 minutes ago, Faiz said:

@xmerchant, Milk spotting shouldn't effect the value of bullion grade coins, however, in my experience, it does. No one wants milky coins, @Coolsmp couldn't agree with you more. Without going down the rabbit hole of whether we should accept it because it is bullion grade, I would say that coins are there to be appreciated. How can they be with unsightly stains on them. Some coins can be covered, like they've been dipped in the s**t. As for toning, that's a different matter. As long as you keep the coin in an airtight capsule, it should not tone. Not for a very long time anyway. That's not the case with milking, as coins will milk even when in airtight capsules. I would much rather buy an older toned coin, than a newer milky one. Actually, I would never knowingly buy milky coins, unless it was under spot. In that case, I would send it over to @BackyardBullionto melt down and have one of those gorgeous kilo rolo rounds made . 

As for bars, they tend not to be affected by milking. I find the poured bars to be the least affected. I've yet to see a poured bar with milk stains. I can't say the same about pressed bars, as these are really coins in the shape of a bar. As small pressed bars are made from the same silver sheets as coins, I would imagine that milking could be an issue. The other benefit of a poured bar is that no two bars are the same. They have surface imperfections and I would not think twice about using silver polish to remove any blemishes. However, I wouldn't do that to an antique bar, as the toning usually shows the age of the bar, much like old coins.

Residing in the UK, we should be aware of the Capital Gains Tax (CGT) that is due on the sale of silver bars. This is not the case for Britannia's and other UK legal tender coins., milky or otherwise 😁. I suggest you watch the recent video that @BackyardBullionput out on 1 kilo silver bars.

It was a very good video covering why bars, especially the 1 kilo ones, are so attractive, and fun to play with 🙂.  I hope that helps @xmerchant.

Have a great remaining weekend.

Haha thanks, you would be a great sponsor for byb 👍 

The CGT is pretty disappointed as I'm pretty sure Britannia's are highly prone to milk spotting. However if we are going by bullion weight I will be able to get away with some techniques to remove the spots.

About CGT, how much silver do you have to sell to get CGT. Is it a certain amount?

I've heard that if you use desiccant/vacuum-sealing when bought helps with milk spots not to appear. Found it from a chemist on a YouTube comment

[BackyardBullion]

My thoughts on the subject verbalised

 

[Martlet]

54 minutes ago, xmerchant said:

About CGT, how much silver do you have to sell to get CGT. Is it a certain amount?

Current CGT allowance is £12,300, you need to make that much profit before worrying about CGT.

[BackyardBullion]

Really interesting feedback non this video, I am glad it got a lot of views quickly on YouTube so hopefully this will range far and wide.

The vast majority of comments on this video so far agree it is nothing to do with the dealers and everything to do with the mint to fix this problem.

So to the OP and those moaning about the EU Mint, please take note of the comments on this video - Milk is nothing to do with a dealer regardless of who they are.

[AndrewSL76]

Late to the discussion. Nothing new to add aside from my own experience of the EuMint.

I have placed two orders with them in recent years and both were fine. Exceptional service pre and post delivery. No spotting at all. Arrived on time and well packaged. All were Royal Mint products: mixes of 1oz Brits (tubes, not individual) and 10oz QBs both times.

As I say both orders were fine. They were bought for weight and long term holding and so I wouldn’t mind if they had been milk spotted. Is anyone really buying silver Britannia’s etc for display etc.?

I can’t see what the fuss is all about. If you’re going to get upset at a BU silver coin getting milk spotted maybe you should invest in gold instead. 

For clarity, if I paid bullion prices (also without VAT!) and received milk spotted coins, they would be stored as bullion and sold in the future as bullion. I wouldn’t be complaining wasting my valuable time. The time spent chasing the dealers emailing back and forth and getting your blood pressure up etc is just not worth it for something which is (in my view) totally irrelevant. You could have cleaned them as per @HighlandTiger’s instructions in that time.....So, no, milk spotting of bullion coins isn’t an issue and could even have happened whilst the package is sat in a truck on the M25 anyway.....how do you combat against that?

[Seasider]

On 07/10/2020 at 17:48, Coolsmp said:

I wonder how the EU mint stores its silver. Anyone know???

Presumably in churns.

[AndrewSL76]

26 minutes ago, Seasider said:

Presumably in churns.

Not since 31 July 1979.

[Seasider]

7 minutes ago, AndrewSL76 said:

Not since 31 July 1979.

I think that was when they started - "re-purposing"😁

[HawkHybrid]

4 hours ago, BackyardBullion said:

My thoughts on the subject verbalised

 

 

byb, what I do is to stack 20/25 coins. put the tube upside down over the coin stack.

then carefully tip the whole thing to the side with help from gloved hands. all that's

left then is to turn it the right way up and seal. (not the most elegant method but can

be controlled and helps with coins striking each other)

 

HH

[Stacker2020]

This was an interesting thread to read. I've made several purchases with the European mint and, mostly, have had decent coins delivered. I have had some coins that were milk spotted, like the 2016 RCM Supermans (notorious for milking), and more recently some 2019 Royal Arms.

Personally it didn't bother me receiving a few milky coins in a large order. Don't get me wrong, I would have preferred perfect coins, but I understand that it's almost impossible for large volume dealers to check everything that goes out of the door. 

I didn't complain, but if I had and was offered the deal the author of this thread received, I would have been satisfied. 

I do feel like European Mint try their best to keep their customers happy. We all know the other popular Belgian dealer and their absolute lack of customer service. In comparison European mint is leaps and bounds ahead. The few issues I have contacted then about have been dealt with quickly and efficiently.

[HighlandTiger]

12 hours ago, BackyardBullion said:

Really interesting feedback non this video, I am glad it got a lot of views quickly on YouTube so hopefully this will range far and wide.

The vast majority of comments on this video so far agree it is nothing to do with the dealers and everything to do with the mint to fix this problem.

So to the OP and those moaning about the EU Mint, please take note of the comments on this video - Milk is nothing to do with a dealer regardless of who they are.

I have to disagree 100% of the claim that dealers have zero responsibility. WOW, a dealer passes on substandard goods and he can just get away with it? Name me any other retail industry that can get away with that claim. Trading standards may take a different view.

Whilst milk spotting is a production issue with the mint, it is the dealers responsibility to refuse to purchase these items until the problem is solved. If they don't then they should not be false selling on their websites. After all, the dealers show pictures of nice shiny coins on their websites, and the public should be entitled to receive those same shiny coins as described, UNLESS, the website has a caveat that says these coins may arrive with milk spots or may in time show milk spotting.

If you buy a new watch on a website, and it comes covered in dirt and mould, you are entitled to a refund, coins should be no different. It would be interesting to see the results of a trading standards enquiry on the legality of selling milk spotted coins without informing the buyer that their coins may arrive with these spots.

So the ball is in the court of all dealers, they need to be truthful upfront and inform their customers at point of purchase of the milk spot possibility, and reflect that possibility in their pricing, and they need to put pressure on the mints to solve this. Because the status quo cannot continue. 

And as for telling people who have a legitimate beef with mints and dealers, to take notice of comments from your YouTube subscribers, and basically give the impression of "tough, just suck it up, cos that's the way it is, and my mates agree with me" is a cop out of major proportions.

The ONLY people that can get the mints to change ARE the dealers. It's only the dealers who buy the monster boxes in bulk, it is only the dealers that have the financial clout and buying power to make the mints sit up and listen. If you are waiting for the mints to change, you may be waiting a while if no dealer ever puts their head above the parapet and complains.

[BackyardBullion]

18 minutes ago, HighlandTiger said:

I have to disagree 100% of the claim that dealers have zero responsibility. WOW, a dealer passes on substandard goods and he can just get away with it? Name me any other retail industry that can get away with that claim. Trading standards may take a different view.

Whilst milk spotting is a production issue with the mint, it is the dealers responsibility to refuse to purchase these items until the problem is solved. If they don't then they should not be false selling on their websites. After all, the dealers show pictures of nice shiny coins on their websites, and the public should be entitled to receive those same shiny coins as described, UNLESS, the website has a caveat that says these coins may arrive with milk spots or may in time show milk spotting.

If you buy a new watch on a website, and it comes covered in dirt and mould, you are entitled to a refund, coins should be no different. It would be interesting to see the results of a trading standards enquiry on the legality of selling milk spotted coins without informing the buyer that their coins may arrive with these spots.

So the ball is in the court of all dealers, they need to be truthful upfront and inform their customers at point of purchase of the milk spot possibility, and reflect that possibility in their pricing, and they need to put pressure on the mints to solve this. Because the status quo cannot continue. 

And as for telling people who have a legitimate beef with mints and dealers, to take notice of comments from your YouTube subscribers, and basically give the impression of "tough, just suck it up, cos that's the way it is, and my mates agree with me" is a cop out of major proportions.

The ONLY people that can get the mints to change ARE the dealers. It's only the dealers who buy the monster boxes in bulk, it is only the dealers that have the financial clout and buying power to make the mints sit up and listen. If you are waiting for the mints to change, you may be waiting a while if no dealer ever puts their head above the parapet and complains.

Well, this is what the internet is for, a sharing of different opinions.

For the reasons I have already explained it is going to be impossible for dealers to do this without passing ok huge extra costs to the customer at the end of the process. The mint will not accept there is an issue with the coins so sending back is not a viable option.

As to describing the coins as having the potential for milk spotting - yes they could do this I will concede that. 

But the bottom line is until the mint changes their quality control and definition of what is acceptable (milk spots are not considered a defect) this absolves all dealers and the mint for any issues that arise because of it. It is not in any way comparable to buying a watch with a defect.

Is this morally right, no of course not but it is the facts of the situation.

[HighlandTiger]

2 minutes ago, BackyardBullion said:

Well, this is what the internet is for, a sharing of different opinions.

For the reasons I have already explained it is going to be impossible for dealers to do this without passing ok huge extra costs to the customer at the end of the process. The mint will not accept there is an issue with the coins so sending back is not a viable option.

As to describing the coins as having the potential for milk spotting - yes they could do this I will concede that. 

But the bottom line is until the mint changes their quality control and definition of what is acceptable (milk spots are not considered a defect) this absolves all dealers and the mint for any issues that arise because of it. It is not in any way comparable to buying a watch with a defect.

Is this morally right, no of course not but it is the facts of the situation.

Morals, have nothing to do with consumer rights. Who decided that milk spots are not considered a defect?. If customers of the mint or dealers are not informed of the existence of milk spots, at the point of sale, (and as far as I can see neither the mint nor dealers mention this at the point of sale}, then they should fall foul to trading standards regulations. The Royal Mint does not mention Milk spots as part of its minting process on its website as far as I can see.

If I get time In the next week or so, I may draft an email to trading standards, about this situation. Lets see what they have to say. This could be fun.