Europeanmint milk-spotted silver coins

[BackyardBullion]

@HighlandTiger

Good luck getting anywhere with it is all I will say!

[BackyardBullion]

I suspect that this page of definitions will be used in their defense.

https://www.royalmint.com/discover/coin-collecting/striking-standards/

[BackyardBullion]

@HighlandTiger Last question for you, the same questions but regarding toning and oxidisation on your coins, do you feel this is the dealers responsibility too and/or a breach of trading standards? 

Not trying to be combative, just interested in the full picture. 

[HighlandTiger]

8 minutes ago, BackyardBullion said:

@HighlandTiger Last question for you, the same questions but regarding toning and oxidisation on your coins, do you feel this is the dealers responsibility too and/or a breach of trading standards? 

Not trying to be combative, just interested in the full picture. 

If toned coins are sold instead of the shiny new coins that what was advertised, then yes.

 

30 minutes ago, BackyardBullion said:

I suspect that this page of definitions will be used in their defense.

https://www.royalmint.com/discover/coin-collecting/striking-standards/

Looking at that page, it appears that many dealers are breaking the law by advertising coins being BU, or BUnc, when in fact they mean bullion. Either way, laws are being broken. 

[BackyardBullion]

10 minutes ago, HighlandTiger said:

If toned coins are sold instead of the shiny new coins that what was advertised, then yes.

 

Looking at that page, it appears that many dealers are breaking the law by advertising coins being BU, or BUnc, when in fact they mean bullion. Either way, laws are being broken. 

Yes indeed, now you mention it there are many many dealers that are describing the basic bullion coins as BU when they should be described as bullion. 

Atkinsons is the only dealer on a quick search that describes them as bullion finish. 

[HighlandTiger]

22 minutes ago, BackyardBullion said:

Yes indeed, now you mention it there are many many dealers that are describing the basic bullion coins as BU when they should be described as bullion. 

Atkinsons is the only dealer on a quick search that describes them as bullion finish. 

In that case you will agree with me that your European Mint is deceiving the public by claiming their coins as being Brilliant Uncirculated, when they are in fact bullion grade. And as such people should be able to claim a full refund of any coins that have milk spots. 

[BackyardBullion]

1 minute ago, HighlandTiger said:

In that case you will agree with me that your European Mint is deceiving the public by claiming their coins as being Brilliant Uncirculated, when they are in fact bullion grade. And as such people should be able to claim a full refund of any coins that have milk spots. 

I will agree they should look at this and look to change it. 

As to them actively deceiving the public I cannot comment on this because it is entirely possible that even with the BU designation the Royal Mint does not recognise the milk spotting issue on this finish of coins. 

I will pass this feedback on to the EU mint and see what they say, that is all I can do at this point. 

[BackyardBullion]

10 minutes ago, HighlandTiger said:

In that case you will agree with me that your European Mint is deceiving the public by claiming their coins as being Brilliant Uncirculated, when they are in fact bullion grade. And as such people should be able to claim a full refund of any coins that have milk spots. 

 

Just like to point out nearly every dealer I have looked at describes these coins as BU

It is not just the EU mint and to single them out is not appropriate for this thread 

[HighlandTiger]

9 minutes ago, BackyardBullion said:

Just like to point out nearly every dealer I have looked at describes these coins as BU

It is not just the EU mint and to single them out is not appropriate for this thread 

I wasn't singling them out, but as this thread is about them and the coins they sell, and whether someone who had bought coins from them was entitled to compensation or a refund. It was entirely appropriate to mention them in this way. What other companies do and don't do is neither here nor there. And you have already mentioned that "everyone does it", although I don't think that excuse would wash in a court of law. 

 

It seems you have gone from the cheerleading "they've done nothing wrong", to "maybe they have, and I'll contact them"

I have no connection with any dealer and as such I can be objective about all of them.

And they all need to sharpen up their game, don't you think.

[BackyardBullion]

Just now, HighlandTiger said:

I wasn't singling them out, but as this thread is about them and the coins they sell, and whether someone who had bought coins from them was entitled to compensation or a refund. It was entirely appropriate to mention them in this way. What other companies do and don't do is neither here nor there. And you have already mentioned that "everyone does it", although I don't think that excuse would wash in a court of law. 

 

It seems you have gone from the cheerleading "they've done nothing wrong", to "maybe they have, and I'll contact them"

I have no connection with any dealer and as such I can be objective about all of them.

And they all need to sharpen up their game, don't you think.

I was saying they have done nothing wrong by supplying coins with milk spots - that is the mints problem in my eyes, we disagree on that and that is fine. 

I agree with you that they should look to change the way they describe these coins and have passed this on to them for them to review. 

[HighlandTiger]

4 minutes ago, BackyardBullion said:

I was saying they have done nothing wrong by supplying coins with milk spots - that is the mints problem in my eyes, we disagree on that and that is fine. 

I agree with you that they should look to change the way they describe these coins and have passed this on to them for them to review. 

100% agree with you. No one is doing anything wrong selling coins with milkspots. But they must inform the public of the quality of the coins.

I'd be more than happy if every dealer just said these are bullion coins and sold on their intrinsic value alone, and could come with scratches, dings and milk spots. Everyone would know where they stood. 

Although there is the argument then on why buy these coins at those premiums if you are only buying for the silver content, and the only upside is them being CGT free which would actually benefit very few people other than those who have tens of thousands of pounds worth of silver. 

There are far cheaper ways of stacking silver for its content alone.

Something to ponder in another thread methinks. 

 

[BackyardBullion]

5 minutes ago, HighlandTiger said:

100% agree with you. No one is doing anything wrong selling coins with milkspots. But they must inform the public of the quality of the coins.

I'd be more than happy if every dealer just said these are bullion coins and sold on their intrinsic value alone, and could come with scratches, dings and milk spots. Everyone would know where they stood. 

Although there is the argument then on why buy these coins at those premiums if you are only buying for the silver content, and the only upside is them being CGT free which would actually benefit very few people other than those who have tens of thousands of pounds worth of silver. 

There are far cheaper ways of stacking silver for its content alone.

Something to ponder in another thread methinks. 

 

Yes indeed, I agree. I have passed on a detailed email to the EU mint with a link to this thread and also the definitions of Brilliant Uncirculated.

I will share any updates if I get them. 

Only through this kind of discourse we can improve things for everyone involved and I want to say thanks for being a responsible forum member and not just ranting, raving, shouting and making accusations levied at me for defending dealers and the EU mint as many have done before.

This is how the forum should be.

 

[BackyardBullion]

@HighlandTiger

Really interesting reply from the EU mint:

 

A BU coin is a coin that has never been circulated and retains all of its original mint luster (which can at this time include milk spots or any other defects as dispatched from the mint after quality control).
By definition any bullion coin, even if its BU, has no collectible value and is sold for the silver content only. The prices vary accordingly to the mintage, demand and the premiums which the mints charge.

We are not sure why the Royal Mint makes that separation on the definition. We believe Royal Mint applied that definition to cope with all the complaints they get about the quality of their coins. Bullion and BU are not related in terms of coin grading. A Bullion coin is a bullion coin and can be BU, Circulated, etc.. 

 

If you check the grading systems (US or Europe) you will notice: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coin_grading 

 

Mint State coin is called BU, this includes the MS-60 which by definition: Unattractive, dull or washed-out, mint luster typify this coin. There may be many large detracting contact marks (bag nicks), or damage spots, but absolutely no trace of wear. There could be a heavy concentration of hairlines (minute scratches to a coin’s surface), or unattractive large areas of scuff-marks. Rim nicks may be present, and eye appeal is very poor. Copper coins may be dark, dull and spotted.

So, basically the standard in the industry, including in the grading industry, is to call a coin that comes from the mint: BU. 

However we do take the feedback on board that better descriptions should be provided to our customers on what different definitions of coins are. We will look to take steps to do this in the near future and make it as transparent as possible for our customers to better manage their expectations. 

 

Would be interesting to see what other dealers out there say about the same situation. 

[HighlandTiger]

Perhaps because milk spotting is a fairly new phenomena, then it would seem that industry standard definitions are currently out of date and need renewing urgently.

 

 

[HawkHybrid]

4 hours ago, HighlandTiger said:

Although there is the argument then on why buy these coins at those premiums if you are only buying for the silver content, and the only upside is them being CGT free which would actually benefit very few people other than those who have tens of thousands of pounds worth of silver. 

 

the premiums rises with the purity of the coins. comparing the average only uk cgt free coins, 50% pure

will demand a smaller premium than 92.5% pure, which in turn demands a smaller premium than 99.9%

pure. there is a premium to acquiring 99.9% making it above that of the spot price. the spot price will get

you an entry level 50% coin. pure silver is not priced as spot. i know it sounds misleading that pure silver

is not priced at the spot price. similarly higher purity gold gold are usually priced above that of sovereigns.

 

you don't need to hold tens of thousands worth of silver to benefit from the cgt free status. each year you

get a cgt allowance to cover all cgt taxable profit for that year. if you've used up your cgt allowance by

selling something like a house in that year then all of your non-cgt free silver coins sold in the same year

will have cgt applied to the profits. (for example if you were using a silver price rise to upgrade your existing

home to a more expensive home)

 

(people should understand that the spot price of silver is not the price to pay for holding pure silver in coin

form. the spot price is about large quantities of industrial sized units.)

 

HH

[HawkHybrid]

2 hours ago, BackyardBullion said:

A Bullion coin is a bullion coin and can be BU

 

my understanding is that mint state is called uncirculated abbreviated to unc. a coin is minted Brilliantly Uncirculated(BU)

which is also used as a marketing term as above that of bullion quality. as such I don't think a coin can be graded as BU

by inspection. similarly to how a bullion coin cannot make the proof status by inspection. the top grades for all coins are

still uncirculated. the problem is that dealers are using BU(probably assuming it's a shorthand for bullion) for coins that

are not minted/defined as BU by the royal mint. this is incorrect but there was some confusion when BU coins were first

introduced.

there are widely used 'incorrect' categorising systems. eg why is a 32 inch tv not 32 inches wide, or high?

(it's classified as 32 inches across the diagonal by industry and reclassifying it for consumers could make even more

confusion)

 

HH

[HawkHybrid]

2 hours ago, HighlandTiger said:

Perhaps because milk spotting is a fairly new phenomena, then it would seem that industry standard definitions are currently out of date and need renewing urgently.

 

 

 

a bullion coin is defined as weight, purity and coin design.

 

people hoping that their 'non-collector premium' coin will acquire some collector premium has

nothing to do with how a bullion coin is defined. all the premium that you see on bullion coins are

down to purity and design(it's overpriced). a proof coin would be a coin minted with collectors

premium(and pricing of the collectors premium) in mind.

 

HH

[HighlandTiger]

1 hour ago, HawkHybrid said:

 

the premiums rises with the purity of the coins. comparing the average only uk cgt free coins, 50% pure

will demand a smaller premium than 92.5% pure, which in turn demands a smaller premium than 99.9%

pure. there is a premium to acquiring 99.9% making it above that of the spot price. the spot price will get

you an entry level 50% coin. pure silver is not priced as spot. i know it sounds misleading that pure silver

is not priced at the spot price. similarly higher purity gold gold are usually priced above that of sovereigns.

 

you don't need to hold tens of thousands worth of silver to benefit from the cgt free status. each year you

get a cgt allowance to cover all cgt taxable profit for that year. if you've used up your cgt allowance by

selling something like a house in that year then all of your non-cgt free silver coins sold in the same year

will have cgt applied to the profits. (for example if you were using a silver price rise to upgrade your existing

home to a more expensive home)

 

(people should understand that the spot price of silver is not the price to pay for holding pure silver in coin

form. the spot price is about large quantities of industrial sized units.)

 

HH

If there is a constant premium on coins, then I see little upside to holding coins as a method of holding silver. I can easily buy sterling silver at spot or less, and sell at 88% of spot at a dealer

So let's say spot is £20 and doubles to £40, I can buy at £20 and sell at £35.20, a profit of £15.20 or 76% profit.

Now imagine a coin with a £5 premium on spot, (which is roughly what you pay now). So a coin costs £20. + £5 premium = £25. Silver doubles to £40 and dealers usually give 100% of spot. So you sell for £40 that's a profit of only 60%

Yes of course you can sell coins at a higher price to other collectors, but then I too can sell sterling silver at a higher price to collectors.

The premium on coins always reduces profit margins to me, and is why my coins are going. But I do know I'm in the minority here, and most of you will still continue to stack coins. 😁

[HawkHybrid]

12 minutes ago, HighlandTiger said:

If there is a constant premium on coins, then I see little upside to holding coins as a method of holding silver.

this is true. no longer is the premium expected to be minimal as when coins with silver content

was minted for circulation as currency(many are still stuck in the past with this, or hoping that

this will be the future). minting high purity bullion silver coins is a niche/specialist market and

the royal mint(as well as everyone else on the supply chain) expect to be paid.

 

12 minutes ago, HighlandTiger said:

But I do know I'm in the minority here, and most of you will still continue to stack coins. 😁

I vote bullion gold sovereigns.

 

HH

[Wampum]

Hi,I think with brilliant uncirculated and uncirculated, it is more to do with the dies  rather than the blanks,if you have a uncirculated coin it is struck once and the coin is then ejected, however with a brilliant uncirculated the dies have been hand finished/polished and each is struck twice to give extra detail,so a £1 from the bank and a £1 from a definitive package will be slightly different.

Having said this the blanks are not treated any differently which mean that as a result the mint can cover most imperfections as part of the minting process as a standard uncirculated coin will have some minting imperfections such as bag marks or a weak strike, so I can see the mint using this as a cover for milk spots.

I have seen that milk spots are not just on Silver, as the same can be seen on Platinum Piedfort Five pounds (EBAY has one listed now, A 2004 Piedfort Entente Cordiale)not sure if I could have shown a picture as it's not my listing ,I also have had a few that have the same problem.

I think that the problem is the wash they use, which if not totally removed will then be struck into the coin ,which results in strange patterns on some coins.   

I think it is more common on Silver due to fact it is more reactive with it's surroundings, however I have seen that under the right conditions  any coin can suffer.

I have found the best way to take of a milk spot off is to use an artists putty rubber(never on anything of numismatic value).

The rubber can't have been used to rub anything out as any traces of graphite can cause a scratch, and the aim is to cause friction between the rubber and surface residue and not the coin surface.

Coins with a satin finish work the best, as there is a chance of fine hairlines on a mirrored surface. Again I wouldn't do this with anything of value,as you can't remove a scratch,however a silver coin might tone down to hide the spotting.

If you do try the rubber rinse with Acetone to remove anything left on the surface and a final wash with distilled water( I use the water from our condenser tumble dryer ) 

I will say only use a new rubber with the lightest of touches.                   

[HighlandTiger]

1 hour ago, HawkHybrid said:

 

I vote bullion gold sovereigns.

 

HH

They are the only coin I'll still stack. 😁👍

[SendYourCoin2Me]

Quite the discussion on this that I've missed.  I've had royal mint products from Atkinsons in the UK, and EU-Mint that spotted.  It may have arrived that way, but i tend to just peek under the lid, stick a label on the lid then fire it off into the vault.  I had a 10oz QB capsule arrive cracked from a group order, was going to buy a new one, saw that they were 10bucks each and decided to leave it in the cracked capsule 😁.  It's in the vault now so I probably won't see it for years again anyway.  I've also got Maples that spotted on both sides and philharmonics that spotted badly on the rims that came from goldsilver.be a few years ago.  The point of all this is that silver can, and will, milk spot.  I'd say at least 5% of my silver bullion has been milk spotted.  Things are supposedly improving at the mints, but almost every dealer I've used has as some point delivered coins that spotted.  Its not from storage, like tarnishing might be, but from the mints production methods producing 3 or 4 nines pure silver.

tl;dr 

Numismatic or proof silver is a risk

Some bullion will milk spot.

It's the mint not the dealer.

Gold is immortal if you have the budget.

Oh, and for all the good people who can't cope with your "damaged" spotty bullion, I'll buy it at melt 

 

[SunshineBee]

im new to this forum, and i have read about the milkspotting getting common on coins from Royal mint... i was thinking of getting the white lion of mortimer 10 oz... or 10 oz of the britannia 2021 silver 1 oz... just wonder if these two coins would be milk spotting easily? esp the 10 ozer. Can any experts here in the forum advise. tks!

[Coolsmp]

10oz QB's come in a sealed capsule so less likey to spot. None of mine have spotted.