Europeanmint milk-spotted silver coins

[Coolsmp]

Maybe @BackyardBullion could do an updated video on milk spotting on Royal Mint coins and how these compare to others mints around the world and the technology they use.

We know that the Royal Mint have started to watch his videos. It would help those at the mint know how their customers are feeling in relation to their products.

[Martlet]

8 hours ago, silversky said:

Anyway, my point is that it's not a dealer's fault that Royal Mint products are made with casual attention to their milk problem.  If one buys a product that most newbies know has a tendency to suffer from milk problems, one shouldn't be surprised when they develop them a few months later or even if they arrive with the marks straight away.  If you want milk free Royal Mint coins, buy them second hand, a year or so after release.  You can confirm with the seller that they're good examples and that they're completely free of milk.  It's either that or accept that you may need to buy a few before getting a good enough example to fill a gap in your collection.

I think this is unfair on the Royal Mint, the cause and trigger of milking isn't properly understood.  It seems fairly random whether or not a coin will show milking, and then the degree.  From memory i have a few RM coins showing small spots, under close inspection, while >90% nothing.  Then you have the examples above that look like something has been poured on and not wiped away.  Given the uncertainty, it seems the trigger is important, how they are stored is a factor.  If a dealer has a batch that is milked should that be a note on the site?  If they arent responsible for checking or warning on bullion, then why is the Royal Mint?

[HighlandTiger]

 Ok, I'm going to be very controversial here, and no doubt I'll be giving the collector section of the forum cold sweats.

I have had coins with milk spots in the past, and I have cleaned them quite successfully. (I can hear the gasps of horror from certain forumites). You see I've always thought this "don't clean coins" was a load of bollox created years ago by stuck up stuffy coin collectors.(a bit like wine drinkers who say a wine can only be drunk at certain temperatures) I like shiny clean coins, and in my mind if its ok to clean two thousand year old ancient coins from Rome etc,then its ok to clean a coin a few years old.

Sterling silver coins, (or less purity), can easily be cleaned without damaging or scratching them by using a silver cleaner, like Goddards and a soft cloth. But for .999 silver bullion, which can easily scratch, I use a silver dip from Lighthouse. Soak it for a while and then dab it dry. I mean this is Bullion, it has no real collector value, but it can lose its value if its not shiny and clean. So clean it. 

[silversky]

4 hours ago, Martlet said:

I think this is unfair on the Royal Mint, the cause and trigger of milking isn't properly understood.  It seems fairly random whether or not a coin will show milking, and then the degree.  From memory i have a few RM coins showing small spots, under close inspection, while >90% nothing.  Then you have the examples above that look like something has been poured on and not wiped away.  Given the uncertainty, it seems the trigger is important, how they are stored is a factor.  If a dealer has a batch that is milked should that be a note on the site?  If they arent responsible for checking or warning on bullion, then why is the Royal Mint?

Unfair or not the reality remains that two major mints suffer from milking more than the others.  It's just a fact.  I'm alerted now to one of them making some effort to give the splurge crown back but whether it's just a gimmick or not remains to be seen.  Small independent mints in the USA seem to be very successfully producing milk free products.  Perth Mint the same and they're producing at scale!

On one hand it's clearly down to the manufacturing process but on the other and more importantly, it's the desire and the will to raise the standard of a basic bullion product in mass production.  The legacy manufacturers rely on their legacy.  The newcomers have to innovate and produce only the highest quality products (or significantly lower with no pretences) in order to compete.  It's the timeless natural cycle at work.

I have an image of two mints in my minds eye.  One comes with a floor so clean that you could eat your dinner off it.  Staff are operating a clean room philosophy and brand new, state of the art machinery works away effortlessly producing an exceedingly high quality product.

The other image is of a floor covered in metal turnings, some a century or more old.  Doors at the back of the building haven't been opened for decades and no one alive has any idea what lives behind them.  Piles of junk have long since blocked them off and tales abound of a cocky apprentice being walled up in there for showing up the master.  An old Austin tractor outside runs loose and flapping conveyor belts through a hole in the wall.  Next door in an adjacent shed, a glorious mallard steam engine has a full head of steam up, and through some clever Heath Robinson jiggery pipery, is powering a monstrous press with funny balls spinning round and huge jets of water spraying out of every pipe union at each strike.  Coins are being ejected out at such speed the human eye can barely keep up.  They have long since worn away the original deflector plate and some have started to bounce off onto the floor.  A special pusher brush has been jury rigged into position, pushing escapees back onto those Austin powered belts where they make their way back into the chilly building and over to packaging. After that, a special fingerprinting machine, human, stands guard to pick up the top coin from the odd lucky tube for a nominal inspection.  After exposing the face of this lucky coin to the variable moisture pattern of a human thumb, this special coin is dropped back into it's tube where it's journey to becoming a valuable tarnished fingerprint coin can begin.  A random tube lid is selected from a pile of two possibilities (single tab or double tab) and the tube is sent on it's way to market.  Meanwhile, over in marketing, who inhabit a new and warm shiny building across the street, they are waxing lyrical about historical figures and the Royal grandeur of a bygone era.  The tenth special edition of a special character to a special size is neatly added into a collection with the stroke of a pen. A marketeer pauses momentarily to give a little chuckle at the thought of an already overburdened collector reluctantly having to add this latest premium addition to his ever growing collection of basic bullion coins.  As we end our visit to the mint, the only remaining question is, who will be the lucky finders of those magical special edition fingerprint coins?

And then I woke up.  

[Abyss]

When Is A Milk Spotted Coin Acceptable ?

Mar 1, 2017 Shadow Stack 10.5K subscribers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJoH4x1Fc9A

 

[songofthunder]

7 hours ago, HighlandTiger said:

 Ok, I'm going to be very controversial here, and no doubt I'll be giving the collector section of the forum cold sweats.

I have had coins with milk spots in the past, and I have cleaned them quite successfully. (I can hear the gasps of horror from certain forumites). You see I've always thought this "don't clean coins" was a load of bollox created years ago by stuck up stuffy coin collectors.(a bit like wine drinkers who say a wine can only be drunk at certain temperatures) I like shiny clean coins, and in my mind if its ok to clean two thousand year old ancient coins from Rome etc,then its ok to clean a coin a few years old.

Sterling silver coins, (or less purity), can easily be cleaned without damaging or scratching them by using a silver cleaner, like Goddards and a soft cloth. But for .999 silver bullion, which can easily scratch, I use a silver dip from Lighthouse. Soak it for a while and then dab it dry. I mean this is Bullion, it has no real collector value, but it can lose its value if its not shiny and clean. So clean it. 

Unfortunately this dip only cleans the toned silver coins. It doesn't clean the milk spots. For that to work you need Cloudy Ammonium, I have never tried it. I just did a little reasearch.

[Roy]

22 hours ago, HighlandTiger said:

a load of bollox, a bit like wine drinkers who say a wine can only be drunk at certain temperatures

I've always found that strange too.

It could be the Himalayas or the Tropics, it goes down equally well.

[songofthunder]

20 hours ago, Abyss said:

When Is A Milk Spotted Coin Acceptable ?

Mar 1, 2017 Shadow Stack 10.5K subscribers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJoH4x1Fc9A

 

Milk Spotted silver coins are not accepted, since the dealer is selling them brand new, no milk spots, that's what the customers should get. If they will get spotted over time that is a different story. However, when you buy a new coin, this should be sold at correct price. Hope that makes sense. I would love to see that EUMint is transparent and will specify if that bullion coin is milk spotted that you can buy it at lower price as it should be.

[BackyardBullion]

3 minutes ago, thesongofthunder said:

Milk Spotted silver coins are not accepted, since the dealer is selling them brand new, no milk spots, that's what the customers should get. If they will get spotted over time that is a different story. However, when you buy a new coin, this should be sold at correct price. Hope that makes sense. I would love to see that EUMint is transparent and will specify if that bullion coin is milk spotted that you can buy it at lower price as it should be.

It is entirely possible that milk spots happened in transit. Very cold conditions can bring out the milking faster and it might have happened in transit to you when travelling by air. Not unheard of. 

And before anyone moans, I am not just blindly jumping to the defence of the EU Mint, this is the same of any supplier of coins. 

Also, a BU coin is by definition not perfect. It is bullion and therefore expected to have imperfections. If these were proof coins, you have a different case entirely. 

Is it right, is it good? No. But it is the way of bullion. 

[songofthunder]

2 minutes ago, BackyardBullion said:

It is entirely possible that milk spots happened in transit. Very cold conditions can bring out the milking faster and it might have happened in transit to you when travelling by air. Not unheard of. 

And before anyone moans, I am not just blindly jumping to the defence of the EU Mint, this is the same of any supplier of coins. 

Also, a BU coin is by definition not perfect. It is bullion and therefore expected to have imperfections. If these were proof coins, you have a different case entirely. 

Is it right, is it good? No. But it is the way of bullion. 

If that is the case, I would recommend EU Mint to specify that for the silver coins, otherwise someone could easily bring them in court.

[BackyardBullion]

1 minute ago, thesongofthunder said:

If that is the case, I would recommend EU Mint to specify that for the silver coins, otherwise someone could easily bring them in court.

Nobody would succeed in court, otherwise it would have happened already! Milking is not a new phenomenon and certainly not one that would be arguable in court. 

[silversky]

55 minutes ago, thesongofthunder said:

Milk Spotted silver coins are not accepted, since the dealer is selling them brand new, no milk spots, that's what the customers should get. If they will get spotted over time that is a different story. However, when you buy a new coin, this should be sold at correct price. Hope that makes sense. I would love to see that EUMint is transparent and will specify if that bullion coin is milk spotted that you can buy it at lower price as it should be.

Why don't you email ALL of the mints and ask them if milk spots comply with their definition of a "brand new Brilliant Uncirculated" coin?  I'm excited to hear the answers you get.

After that, you can come back on here and post their replies (which you seem to think will accept YOUR definition of "brand new" BU being without milk spots).  

Then and only then will you be correct that one particular dealer has done wrong to you (Hint, they haven't).  Until that day, you are in the wrong to blame them and you are actually just slandering them.

Milk spots are a sad fact of modern bullion from most of the large mints (with notable exceptions having done their research and worked hard to avoid them).   If you want those products that are known to suffer from milk spots then you just have to suck it up and stop blaming the poor dealer.  He is simply making a small profit (sometimes a loss) on the sale of a product with a variable price.  He buys coins in sealed boxes of 500.  He sells them unopened.  Sometimes months have rolled off the clock while they are sat on a shelf awaiting sale.  In your world, should he spend many hours opening this box to inspect each coin is still clear of milk?  Does he then sell the ones that have milk at a loss?  Or is he supposed to return them to the mint and complain?

This is simply the nature of the product YOU have chosen to buy.  If YOU don't like the product, buy a different product!!!  Choose a product from a different mint that has a better reputation for not milking up and be happy.  Don't buy something that has a reputation for milking up and then look to blame (and publicly slander) a dealer who is entirely innocent in this.  It's unbecoming of you.

(disclosure: I have nothing to do with the dealer in question. I have no business or personal relationship with them and have never had any transaction or communication with them.  I don't know who they are or what their service is like and make no recommendations.)

[silverdocket]

In my experience anything that I purchased loose in sealable bags all spotted and had fingerprints.

When I received them they were perfect at the time but later discovered they we're clearly handled at some stage before I got them.

I'll never buy coins again that come in a sealable bags or loose in tubes.

Less chance of cross contamination.

Everything else I bought in capsules we're fine apart from the damaged capsules.

So moving forward I won't purchase anything unless it came in a capsule directly from the mint to the dealer.

Either way an honest description should be given and European mint are not the only dealer in Europe known for this.

New means new with no imperfections regardless if it's bullion or proof.

The the dealers charge a premium rate over bullion for the coins so you expect them to be perfect.

 

[HighlandTiger]

22 hours ago, thesongofthunder said:

Unfortunately this dip only cleans the toned silver coins. It doesn't clean the milk spots. For that to work you need Cloudy Ammonium, I have never tried it. I just did a little reasearch.

I've tried it on milky coins. It does work 

[HighlandTiger]

6 hours ago, Roy said:

I've always found that strange too.

It could be the Himalayas or the Tropics, it goes down equally well.

I love chilled red wine. Sacrilege eh?

[BackyardBullion]

1 minute ago, HighlandTiger said:

I love chilled red wine. Sacrilege eh?

I once had a chilled sparkling red wine in Australia. Best sparkling wine I have ever had, the vineyard owner was a properly good salesman as I thought he was joking. We left with a case of the stuff!

[songofthunder]

1 hour ago, HighlandTiger said:

I've tried it on milky coins. It does work 

How for how long did you dip the coin in it?

[HighlandTiger]

4 minutes ago, thesongofthunder said:

How for how long did you dip the coin in it?

Buggered if I can remember, as I have a habit of chucking a coin in to soak and forgetting about them.  

Knowing me, probably an hour or so. I don't follow instructions. 

[HawkHybrid]

5 hours ago, silverdocket said:

New means new with no imperfections regardless if it's bullion or proof.

new means newly minted to the right weight, purity and design specifications within tolerances.

people need to understand that they are paying for mutton, so shouldn't be expecting lamb. you

get what you pay for. a proof is a numismatic(level of quality) coin, a bullion coin is bought for it's

metal content, they are completely different coins aimed at very different markets.

5 hours ago, silverdocket said:

The the dealers charge a premium rate over bullion for the coins so you expect them to be perfect.

are you saying that the profit margin on these coins is more than the small percentage that has been

suggested by other members?

 

imo shadow stack is incorrectly using the term BU(acronym for Brilliantly Uncirculated) as being the

same as bullion. by the royal mint definitions they are not the same thing. also casually letting on that

the coin is a defect because a coin has milk spots is poor form from shadow stack(imo).

 

there are many industries that have imperfections that are not defects, eg lcd display with a dead pixel,

buggy software, weaker grain orientation on wood, (and others). none of these are defects because

they are within the tolerances for the market that they are aimed at. defect meaning not fit for purpose

is only applicable for something out of spec such as if the coin was under weight.

 

@thesongofthunder just so that you know, your second order was likely to be highly imperfect. why?

European mint offered you a sizeable discount(compared to margins). are they going to/can afford to

take a loss on your second order?, no. the reasoning being if they could afford to then they were better

off taking the same/similar loss on your first order. how then can they afford to sell you the coins at a

lower price? by offering you cheaper(inferior) coins, that are still within the spec tolerances.

you get what you pay for, there is a reason why some companies can consistently undercut others in a

market where there is not much wiggle room.

 

(setting up as an online bullion coin seller is a doddle from an expertise point of view. if the margins were

so comfortable, all of the amazon of companies would be at it)

 

HH

[songofthunder]

1 hour ago, HighlandTiger said:

Buggered if I can remember, as I have a habit of chucking a coin in to soak and forgetting about them.  

Knowing me, probably an hour or so. I don't follow instructions. 

Holy smokes, that is too long. It can tone the silver if you keep it that long.

[songofthunder]

@HawkHybrid you are spot on regarding the BU = Brilliant Uncirculated. 

Also the EUMint is not cheap at all. I am buying from other sources and I have never received a milk spotted coin from them, also the price is way less than the EU Mint. However, some coins I can't find them so when I make a purchase from EUMint I also include other coins like Britannia or Royal Arms + plus some extra coins that I can't find. Anyways, in conclusion EUMint is not cheap!

[xmerchant]

On 26/09/2020 at 18:09, BackyardBullion said:

Hardly EU mints fault, its the Royal Mints coin condition that is at fault here.

The EU mint just send on the coins they get from the mint.

Every coin dealer in the world has this problem, to single out any dealer for the condition of the coins in one of the thousands of orders they ship out without issue just perpetuates the idea that the dealers have a responsibility to dispatch only flawless coins, if you want a flawless version of the coin you need to order from the mint directly or in person so you can inspect the coins.

Moaning reviews have their place, I'm not saying the OP should not have posted about this, but what other people need to realise is there is a significant amount of context always missing from posts and situations like this.

10,000+ orders all fine and dandy - a few situations where less than perfect coins does supplied does not make a dealer a bad or unethical one.

If you can order directly from the RM what's the point of the EU mint dispatching it?

Do they do something special to the coin or just dispatch them; a partnership like eBay & PayPal?

[xmerchant]

On 26/09/2020 at 19:19, BackyardBullion said:

Totally inappropriate analogy. In fact completely manipulated to make your biased point!

The EU mint have offered close to a 10% refund on a like for like future order....how that can be construed as not generous when you consider @ChrisSilver's comment earlier is beyond me. It's also a lot more than you would get from many other dealers.

I suggest you aquatint yourself with the bullion industry a lot more before you call milked coins "faulty" and would expect a full refund from whoever you bought them from and then moaning about another person's situation which you know very little about.

I thought milked coins were faulty or is it more a cosmetic issue?

For collectors I'd see it as an issue but if we are going by bullion weight they would still sell fine right?

[xmerchant]

On 28/09/2020 at 18:32, BackyardBullion said:

 

 

[HighlandTiger]

I'm surprised of the number of members, who are just accepting milky coins as "part of being bullion coins". 

Only a few short years ago, when milky coins first started appearing, the stacking world were up in arms about it. Well, the mints andtheir PR teams have done you all up like kippers, because they have now succeeded in getting you lot to accept any old tat.

Give it a few more years, you'll be accepting, milk spots, blemishes, dings and scratches from the mints, all because its "part of being bullion coins"

And the funny thing is you'll be paying the same price for these coins as you were paying for perfect shiny undamaged coins in the past.