Proof Over Bullion The Buckingham Collection

[Guest]

I would like to know everyone thoughts on why most people are "stacking" or "collecting" bullion coins. 

The majority of all bullion coins will only ever go up in value in minor increments due to the price in gold, where as proof metals seems to make more money if you buy the right proof coin for the right year of historical significance.

Are proof metals something that everyone on here is aware of and how this can be a way of making you more money than any bullion?

PS: This is not a sales ploy just purely looking for feedback from consumers. 

[goldmember44]

Both have their separate advantages. Bullion gold is the cheapest way to own gold as a store of value, hedge against inflation and devaluation of currency. Bullion gold pieces have the advantage over proof coins mainly that 1) they are cheaper, and 2) they are more liquid for a quick sale. Bullion gold is pretty much equal to cash. 

Having said that, as you mentioned already proof coins accumulate value on top of the gold price, the numismatic value. And for long term investments, as well as for collectors, that's an attractive option. Of course not all proof coins are equal, and one has to be careful and shrewd in your choices, to pick coins that are most likely to retain their premiums and increase in value more than others... for example, proof sovereigns being a popular choice.

[Jimmock]

Personally,I now tend to nearly always just buy bullion coins,as going forward I will always know the minimum that I'm going to achieve,when I sell.Also with proof coins they have to remain in a "mint" condition,for any premium you've paid to remain the same.

[Tn21]

My take is that with a higher spot price in gold buying bullion puts less of a dent in the wallet compared to proofs. I don't know the proof market well enough so I stay well clear of it and I have no intentions of getting into the proof market either.

I have mainly ever bought bullion as it's the gold content and weight I'm interested in and not boxes and a different finish (even though some finishes look amazing).  

 

If I may also take this reply to respond about customer service. Any issues or bad feedback the Buckingham Collection are getting should be used as a golden (😁) opportunity to flip the customer and get them back on board, which is kind of what you guys have done with the free half Sov.

You then got to follow up on the customer call them and check in with them to see if all is well. There is service and then there is service. The phone is key, give me the phone let me talk to them.

 

Bullion is also far more easier and has less of a risk for the first timers compared to proofs.  

[Pete]

2 hours ago, TheBuckinghamCollection said:

I would like to know everyone thoughts on why most people are "stacking" or "collecting" bullion coins. 

I am currently depleting my stack of beautiful gold proof coins because trying to sell them above bullion prices is proving impossible.
So far I have destroyed about 25 sets of FDC condition coin sets including 2, 3 and 4 coin sets of boxed & certified Britannias and Sovereigns amongst some others.
I am also stunned to see dealers still asking 30% to 100% premiums on the identical coins and boxed sets so I guess they will not sell for a while if my experience has anything to go by.
These same dealers will only pay 97% of spot for these sets so I am splitting the sets and not passing on the nice presentation boxes and certificates in disappointment.
I would rather trash the box if there is no value in it to a dealer, which I cannot understand when you have to pay 10 pence for a throwaway plastic bag to carry your groceries.

The investment value in proofs is today doubtful in my experience.
I am constantly bombarded with emails and letters from people like Harrington Byrne who present a load of bull about the rarity, investment potential and future value of proofs yet they are not interested in buying anything back and you are left with auctions and high selling fees. The value is only ever what someone else will pay. 
In the electronic world the analogy is a diode - [ money ] flows one way !!
When you buy you pay a hefty premium and when you sell you get shafted.

Having personal direct experience I will only, from now, purchase bullion coins, or if there is another seller out there like me, and I am very lucky with timing, I can get a beautiful proof for bullion or close to bullion price.

Does that adequately answer your query ?
You can read between the lines my great frustration after having "invested" in proofs many years ago.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Pete said:

I am currently depleting my stack of beautiful gold proof coins because trying to sell them above bullion prices is proving impossible.
So far I have destroyed about 25 sets of FDC condition coin sets including 2, 3 and 4 coin sets of boxed & certified Britannias and Sovereigns amongst some others.
I am also stunned to see dealers still asking 30% to 100% premiums on the identical coins and boxed sets so I guess they will not sell for a while if my experience has anything to go by.
These same dealers will only pay 97% of spot for these sets so I am splitting the sets and not passing on the nice presentation boxes and certificates in disappointment.
I would rather trash the box if there is no value in it to a dealer, which I cannot understand when you have to pay 10 pence for a throwaway plastic bag to carry your groceries.

The investment value in proofs is today doubtful in my experience.
I am constantly bombarded with emails and letters from people like Harrington Byrne who present a load of bull about the rarity, investment potential and future value of proofs yet they are not interested in buying anything back and you are left with auctions and high selling fees. The value is only ever what someone else will pay. 
In the electronic world the analogy is a diode - [ money ] flows one way !!
When you buy you pay a hefty premium and when you sell you get shafted.

Having personal direct experience I will only, from now, purchase bullion coins, or if there is another seller out there like me, and I am very lucky with timing, I can get a beautiful proof for bullion or close to bullion price.

Does that adequately answer your query ?
You can read between the lines my great frustration after having "invested" in proofs many years ago.

I agree with some dealers will try to shaft you on the buy back prices. Before ever buying proof we would suggest that that coin is specific to a year with historical significance, also with a low edition limit. There is much research to do before buying proof.

Buckingham Collection is starting to do buy back no matter where the coins were purchased from, offering fair prices for any gold proof coins only. we will keep the forum updated. 

This may be of help to you in the near future. 

 

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, Tn21 said:

My take is that with a higher spot price in gold buying bullion puts less of a dent in the wallet compared to proofs. I don't know the proof market well enough so I stay well clear of it and I have no intentions of getting into the proof market either.

I have mainly ever bought bullion as it's the gold content and weight I'm interested in and not boxes and a different finish (even though some finishes look amazing).  

 

If I may also take this reply to respond about customer service. Any issues or bad feedback the Buckingham Collection are getting should be used as a golden (😁) opportunity to flip the customer and get them back on board, which is kind of what you guys have done with the free half Sov.

You then got to follow up on the customer call them and check in with them to see if all is well. There is service and then there is service. The phone is key, give me the phone let me talk to them.

 

Bullion is also far more easier and has less of a risk for the first timers compared to proofs.  

Buying proof without the right guidance or research can end up being a disaster. 

We highly recommend research before ever buying proof coins. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, goldmember44 said:

Both have their separate advantages. Bullion gold is the cheapest way to own gold as a store of value, hedge against inflation and devaluation of currency. Bullion gold pieces have the advantage over proof coins mainly that 1) they are cheaper, and 2) they are more liquid for a quick sale. Bullion gold is pretty much equal to cash. 

Having said that, as you mentioned already proof coins accumulate value on top of the gold price, the numismatic value. And for long term investments, as well as for collectors, that's an attractive option. Of course not all proof coins are equal, and one has to be careful and shrewd in your choices, to pick coins that are most likely to retain their premiums and increase in value more than others... for example, proof sovereigns being a popular choice.

Correct.

 We do try to offer the both coins to our customers. 

We try to pick the coins that have an anniversary linked to the date or a low edition etc. 

I suppose the thing is with proof as mentioning below the research should be done first. 

[MickB]

My local bullion dealer sells proof sovereigns for the same price as his bullion coins. Some are flawless and others have slight marks but he regards them the same as bullion. These are all pre-owned by the way, not direct from the mint. I do have a few proofs bought cheap this way but mainly buy bullion. I did buy a 2017 proof sovereign from the Royal Mint but that's to keep.

With this in mind I won't be getting into collecting full price proofs as I'd be gutted if I had to sell at that much of a loss.

[goldmember44]

2 minutes ago, MickB said:

My local bullion dealer sells proof sovereigns for the same price as his bullion coins. Some are flawless and others have slight marks but he regards them the same as bullion. These are all pre-owned by the way, not direct from the mint. I do have a few proofs bought cheap this way but mainly buy bullion. I did buy a 2017 proof sovereign from the Royal Mint but that's to keep.

With this in mind I won't be getting into collecting full price proofs as I'd be gutted if I had to sell at that much of a loss.

I guess that depends on 1) the year and 2) the condition. Proof sovereigns from the 80's, for example, are high mintage relatively speaking, and low in demand, and can be bought cheaply in the secondary market. However generally speaking, proof sovereigns of the 90's, and those after 2012 seem to retain a premium.

[MickB]

2 minutes ago, goldmember44 said:

I guess that depends on 1) the year and 2) the condition. Proof sovereigns from the 80's, for example, are high mintage relatively speaking, and low in demand, and can be bought cheaply in the secondary market. However generally speaking, proof sovereigns of the 90's, and those after 2012 seem to retain a premium.

Also I get to enjoy bullion sovereigns more than proofs as I can handle them without affecting their value. Something a bit frustrating about not being able to handle a proof with your bare hands.

[goluckystayhappy]

I, fondly, remember the days when HGM were a pure bullion dealer and sometimes you would order 10 sovereigns and on their arrival you would find some mint proofs in the bundle.

I build up some nice proof krugerrands this way although I always thought selling 1967 krugerrands at normal bullion price a bit strange.

[Serendipity]

8 hours ago, Tn21 said:

My take is that with a higher spot price in gold buying bullion puts less of a dent in the wallet compared to proofs. I don't know the proof market well enough so I stay well clear of it and I have no intentions of getting into the proof market either.

I have mainly ever bought bullion as it's the gold content and weight I'm interested in and not boxes and a different finish (even though some finishes look amazing).  

 

If I may also take this reply to respond about customer service. Any issues or bad feedback the Buckingham Collection are getting should be used as a golden (😁) opportunity to flip the customer and get them back on board, which is kind of what you guys have done with the free half Sov.

You then got to follow up on the customer call them and check in with them to see if all is well. There is service and then there is service. The phone is key, give me the phone let me talk to them.

 

Bullion is also far more easier and has less of a risk for the first timers compared to proofs.  

I’m in the same boat as you and stick to buying bullion coins of which there is a huge variety. Investing in proofs and numismatic coins is a whole different ball game to bullion. I do indulge myself in semi-numismatic coins such as silver Pandas, Kookaburras, Koalas and the novelty Star Trek coin you see on my profile but their premiums are not excessive.

One of the strange things about proofs is that they sell for more with their flashy presentation boxes. That’s why you also have a lucrative market in empty presentation boxes on eBay. I applaud collectors who have the patience to go through the hassle of finding specialist buyers for their proofs and numismatic coins but it’s definitely not for me.

[Mcgrimes]

9 hours ago, CookieMonster said:

I’m more interested in why you deal with frustrated customers so poorly?

On another thread, a customer got a snotty email from you lot when he enquired about his free half sovereign. You lot then rescinded the offer to him. I don’t care what he said, you can’t treat customers like that. I certainly won’t be using you again until he is sorted out.

Even if  he said something poor, He was probably frustrated that his delivery was taking so long.

I knew someone would have to carry this argument on! Even if not directly impacted... Hopefully a mod will remove this and your comment.

[Mcgrimes]

10 hours ago, TheBuckinghamCollection said:

I would like to know everyone thoughts on why most people are "stacking" or "collecting" bullion coins. 

For me, I’m searching for liquidity and low premiums.

The problem I have with proof coins, is that the numismatic value is very unreliable as it can come down to perception of individuals. For example, I would be willing to pay a bit more for a proof coin that was struck in my year of birth - but to anyone else, this is meaningless. (Unless they know why!)

Additionally, it can be pot luck as to what people consider as valuable, which can change over the years. 

I consider bullion and numismatics a bit like the FTSE 100 and AIM shares; one is liquid and (usually) has a price that’s fluctuates slowly and reliably, whilst the other is illiquid and prices can soar or fall on a whim -  a crude comparison but hopefully demonstrates my desired risk profile.

[Serendipity]

9 hours ago, TheBuckinghamCollection said:

Buying proof without the right guidance or research can end up being a disaster. 

We highly recommend research before ever buying proof coins. 

I agree with you absolutely that purchasing proofs whimsically can prove disastrous which is why buyers need to thoroughly research the proofs they are buying. I don’t doubt that investing in proofs and also numismatic coins can be profitable. However, it does require very specialist numismatic knowledge when compared to the liquid bullion market.

[sovereignsteve]

Generally buying proof sovs direct from the mint has been and is a losing strategy. However due to the number of "special" issues in recent years we have seen increased collector interest in proofs with corresponding profit potential.

Buying at higher than mint prices from some of these "specialist" dealers is clearly an even worse strategy.😉

Its all very well saying do your research. That is self evident but it doesn't alter the fact that most proofs are money pits.

[goldmember44]

1 hour ago, sovereignsteve said:

 

Buying at higher than mint prices from some of these "specialist" dealers is clearly an even worse strategy.😉

 

And here you touch on an important point... if a dealer is selling current year proofs (that are still available at the Mint) for higher than Mint prices, then what is one to make of it? The only conclusion I can draw is that those items the dealer offers are specifically aimed at less-informed buyers, or novices. Because I am certain no-one -- for example on this forum -- with a bit of experience is going to pay more for something they can get brand new at the Mint for less. This is just basic logic. That is why some more established dealers, like Chards and the Coin Connection usually offer new Mint releases at discount prices... which would be the only reason why people would buy there instead of the Mint directly. 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, MickB said:

Also I get to enjoy bullion sovereigns more than proofs as I can handle them without affecting their value. Something a bit frustrating about not being able to handle a proof with your bare hands.

All Bullion we send out has never been touched by the human hand, we do recommend not too as this could aid in oxidisation quicker. 

[Goldmick]

Yes the is a fine line for me buying proofs. I do a fair bit of checking that what i pay for one isnt to much. I have bought a few for not much more than bullion yet ive paid a lot for a few special year sovereign.s that i wanted. I think a mix of both is good for me. Its true that bullion is cheap and like some have said you can handle the coin and if you was to put 2 coins on here for sale one proof and one bullion chances are the bullion would sell first. 

[Roy]

35 minutes ago, TheBuckinghamCollection said:

All Bullion we send out has never been touched by the human hand, we do recommend not too as this could aid in oxidisation quicker. 

Oh no..

You mean my collection is ruined? I've fondled all of my bullion coins 

[Clens92]

48 minutes ago, TheBuckinghamCollection said:

All Bullion we send out has never been touched by the human hand, we do recommend not too as this could aid in oxidisation quicker. 

Gold isn't a reactive element and won't oxidise at all; similarly you really can't guarantee that the bullion has never been touched.

[Martlet]

It seems to me that the price proofs already reflects the higher quality and potential future value increases.  So they represent quite a bit of a risk, if the market falls or that simply doesnt rise as much as bullion prices, eroding premium.  I would be interested in low-moderate premium proofs, but wouldnt touch the starting price for recent sovereigns or dealers prices, aside from notable years.  The market needs to move too much to see a return.

[goldmember44]

1 hour ago, Martlet said:

It seems to me that the price proofs already reflects the higher quality and potential future value increases.  So they represent quite a bit of a risk, if the market falls or that simply doesnt rise as much as bullion prices, eroding premium.  I would be interested in low-moderate premium proofs, but wouldnt touch the starting price for recent sovereigns or dealers prices, aside from notable years.  The market needs to move too much to see a return.

This is purely from an investor perspective, yes perhaps. But then there are collectors who do date runs, for example, and are less influenced by the price, but more by rarity, exclusivity etc. For them, an expensive proof of low mintage is more desirable than a cheap coin that is very common. It all depends what your reason is for buying coins. Not all collectors are purely motivated by profit.

[Shinus73]

Buying proofs at proof prices from the Mint - 9 times out of 10 a loser.

Buying pristine proofs in the secondary market at bullion prices - always a winner.