Sovereigns colour

[Fathallazf]

Hello all

A new member!

I was wondering why are the new british sovereigns browner than the earlier ones. Although they both have the same gold purity which is 22k. I know the brown colour comes from the copper content, but still 22k jewelry is vibrant yellow in colour!

i wonder how do they come up with this colour. I mean do they copper plate them to give this effect? Or how   

thanks     

[KDave]

Welcome buddy, this has been asked before. In summary the older coins included metals other than gold and copper plus oxidisation over time gives them the colour. The new ones are near pure copper/gold alloy, hence why they look like a 15mm pipe off cut imo 

I don't know why the mint doesn't just put some silver in them like the yanks do with their coins, much nicer colour when silver is included and good durability - best of both worlds. 

[Roy]

3 minutes ago, KDave said:

I don't know why the mint doesn't just put some silver in them like the yanks do with their coins, much nicer colour when silver is included and good durability - best of both worlds. 

It wouldn't be accepted as 'Crown Gold' then 😊

[Fathallazf]

9 minutes ago, KDave said:

Welcome buddy, this has been asked before. In summary the older coins included metals other than gold and copper plus oxidisation over time gives them the colour. The new ones are near pure copper/gold alloy, hence why they look like a 15mm pipe off cut imo 

I don't know why the mint doesn't just put some silver in them like the yanks do with their coins, much nicer colour when silver is included and good durability - best of both worlds. 

Oh now it all makes sense! Thanks 😀. Sorry i am literary just one day in the forum and still didnt get how it works and if i can check earlier subjects haha.  But thanks for your reply! 

[Argentknight]

Hi, welcome to TSF.

[Britannia47]

Hi,

The Royal Mint for economic reasons uses only copper as its alloy with modern sovereigns, and thus known as 'red' gold which explains the reddish hue. Previous 22ct sovereigns 

have been made from 'yellow gold' by using silver+copper as the alloy.  I believe that some Perth minted proof sovereigns have used 'green gold' - only using just silver as the alloy.

Any metal added to gold will change its colour,  producing many shades of gold, but that is mainly the preserve of the jewelry trade.

My 2005 'Sydney - Australia' proof certainly has a green hue to it.  In my opinion  modern non proof sovereigns are are cheap shiny looking , compared to past sovereigns which actually looked golden.  Some of my proof Britannia gold coins are 'yellow gold'  To appreciate a real gold coin I  would suggest a 1/4 oz beast series made from 24ct (999) gold. It actually weighs less than a sovereign but contains more pure gold than a sovereign. The Royal Mint has done a great disservice  to the Sovereign by using Red gold.

[danmc82]

One day Copper might be to expensive for the RM too use. Wonder what an Iron/Gold mix would look like 😁

[sovereignsteve]

35 minutes ago, Britannia47 said:

The Royal Mint has done a great disservice  to the Sovereign by using Red gold.

I don't really mind the red colour tbh, it's the horrible shiny surface that has ruined the bullion sovs imo. The proofs and the better-than-bullion BU coins look fine to my eyes. If they only made them like the Gillick E2 sovs with a proper matt surface and luster/cartwheeling, even the modern designs would look worthy of the name.

[Seasider]

48 minutes ago, Britannia47 said:

Perth minted proof sovereigns have used 'green gold'

Are you sure that was not Lord Percy the discoverer of "purest green"?

[CookieMonster]

2 hours ago, Seasider said:

Are you sure that was not Lord Percy the discoverer of "purest green"?

I might have legitimately pissed myself laughing at this comment!

"Oh, Edmund! Can it be true? That hold before me, in my mortal hands, a nugget of purest green?!"

"Well, it's not a nugget, really. It's more of a splat!".

[RoughDog]

On ‎05‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 16:34, KDave said:

Welcome buddy, this has been asked before. In summary the older coins included metals other than gold and copper plus oxidisation over time gives them the colour. The new ones are near pure copper/gold alloy, hence why they look like a 15mm pipe off cut imo 

I don't know why the mint doesn't just put some silver in them like the yanks do with their coins, much nicer colour when silver is included and good durability - best of both worlds. 

Are you saying the old coins were a different colour when released?

if so, how different was it's colour at release compared to an old coin now? 

[KDave]

No I don't think tarnish affects the colour much to be honest, or cleaned sovereigns would look different to uncleaned in colour and they don't really. Initially a speculation on my part, I assumed that unless the alloy of copper/gold changes some properties within the metal that leads to tarnish, that naturally over time the copper in them would change colour. If that was actually the case then coins a few years old will be a different colour to the newly minted ones. I don't know how much of this is the case - someone here will be able to check their older sovs and confirm if they are different in colour if they are feeling generous with their time perhaps.

Also I understand that the older coins had various metals in them, including lead, zinc, copper, silver in various quantities due to the refining techniques of the time, some of these metals will also tarnish differently to copper in modern sovereigns. But as I say, the colour difference between cleaned and uncleaned is limited in my experience, meaning that the difference in colour is due to the content of the alloy rather than the coins age.  

[Guest]

11 hours ago, sovereignsteve said:

I don't really mind the red colour tbh, it's the horrible shiny surface that has ruined the bullion sovs imo. The proofs and the better-than-bullion BU coins look fine to my eyes. If they only made them like the Gillick E2 sovs with a proper matt surface and luster/cartwheeling, even the modern designs would look worthy of the name.

To make thing worse, some seller confused the shiny surface of the modern sovereign as "proofs" 😉

[sovereignsteve]

This happens a lot with Perth mint silver bullion as well. I suspect you can only truly use the word "confused" in about 20% of cases😉

[PansPurse]

One possible benefit to the browner colour on modern sovereigns. Easier to hide your stack, just mix them in with a bowl of 1 and 2 pence pieces and most would never even think there''s anything there to be spotted

[Kritika]

Or if your colour blind like me, they all look lovely 😊

 

[LawrenceChard]

On 19/12/2018 at 00:09, Kritika said:

Or if your colour blind like me, they all look lovely 😊

 

In that case, we have a cheap deal going on these 2013 sovereigns just now!

or, if you prefer yellow ones:

 

 

[LawrenceChard]

On 05/12/2018 at 16:06, Fathallazf said:

Hello all

A new member!

I was wondering why are the new british sovereigns browner than the earlier ones. Although they both have the same gold purity which is 22k. I know the brown colour comes from the copper content, but still 22k jewelry is vibrant yellow in colour!

i wonder how do they come up with this colour. I mean do they copper plate them to give this effect? Or how   

thanks     

We briefly answered that FAQ on our website here:

https://www.chards.co.uk/blog/new-versus-old-sovereigns/123

Why Are Some Sovereigns More Yellow Than Others?

Older secondary market sovereigns were minted with a higher concentration of silver which can make them appear more yellow (gold) than the modern sovereigns issued after 2000. Sovereigns issued from 2000 to now have a higher percentage of copper as the main alloy. This gives them a more reddish or coppery tone which can be confusing for buyers.

(Spot the slight error).

I have discussed this with the RM, but they insist that the Coinage Act of 1816 (I think) specifies "red gold" or at least 22 parts of gold, and the balance copper,

In those days, there was almost certainly some residual silver in the gold and/or the copper used for the alloy, so there is always some silver content, which is one of the things that makes gold sovereigns so attractive.

But, some kludge, back in 2000, decided to do things by the book, so that modern sovereigns are a cheap nasty looking coppery red colour.

Modern refining means that much purer component metal are available, so any residual silver content in sovereigns is now usually undetectable.

We have also carried out a lot of research on gold sovereign alloys over the years, and you can find analyses of many dates, and mintmarks, of sovereigns here:

Currently, there are 145 photos in that album, mainly in date order.

More to follow when I get some idle moments.

Perhaps TSF members should start to petition for the RM to start adding some silver to their sovereigns.

Otherwise, we could start making our own, but I think the RM would take a dim view of us undermining their monopoly.

(Should that be their monopoly money?)

[Fathallazf]

I was scared when i read my old post saying i am a new member 😅 I was confused! 

Thanks for the link Lawrence and the info. 

I think the RM should just use pure gold instead of ‘contaminating’ it with coper 😬 since the sovereigns are no more circulated. 

[Arganto]

I feel the Royal Chard Mint would do rather a large amount of business, selling those 'Real Golden Gold Not That 'orrible Poo Gold Wot Some Do Sell' almost sovereigns. I would be very much in the queue.

[LawrenceChard]

2 hours ago, Fathallazf said:

I was scared when i read my old post saying i am a new member 😅 I was confused! 

Thanks for the link Lawrence and the info. 

I think the RM should just use pure gold instead of ‘contaminating’ it with coper 😬 since the sovereigns are no more circulated. 

There is a lot to be said for tradition, so I would prefer to see the Mint continuing sovereigns as 22ct, but just being a bit more intelligent about their historical facts.

Of course, the original sovereigns were about 23 carat gold.

Also, gold Britannias, Queen's beasts, and other recent bullion innovations are now .9999 gold, so they are catering for most tastes.

[LawrenceChard]

On 16/12/2018 at 13:33, sovereignsteve said:

I don't really mind the red colour tbh, it's the horrible shiny surface that has ruined the bullion sovs imo. The proofs and the better-than-bullion BU coins look fine to my eyes. If they only made them like the Gillick E2 sovs with a proper matt surface and luster/cartwheeling, even the modern designs would look worthy of the name.

Without doubt, Gillick first portrait sovereigns look better than the recent production, and mainly because of the slighly matt finish.

Also with little doubt the recent shiny finish allows fater production, and saves a penny or two per coin, but this is short-term thinking in my opinion.

A few years ago at a World Money Fair in Berlin, I had a conversation with Adam Lawrence, who was deputy master and CEO of the Royal Mint. I pointed out the very poor production quality on gold and silver Britannias, and his immediate response was that they needed to maintain a differential between bullion and proof versions, to justify the premium price of the proofs. I think this showed a lack of experience of numismatics, and aesthetics, but the fact that his answer was instant makes me think the question had arisen many times, and perhaps his producton and marketing departments had heavily influenced him.

[Booky586]

32 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

A few years ago at a World Money Fair in Berlin, I had a conversation with Adam Lawrence, who was deputy master and CEO of the Royal Mint. I pointed out the very poor production quality on gold and silver Britannias, and his immediate response was tat they needed to maintain a differential between bullion and proof versions, to justify the premium price of the proofs.

Did he really call their bullion coins tat? 😁

[sovereignsteve]

1 hour ago, LawrenceChard said:

was tat they needed to maintain a differential between bullion and proof versions, to justify the premium price of the proofs.

yes that has been my opinion and many others on this forum. they don't want people collecting the bullion sovereigns any more, they are quite happy producing overpriced proofs to satisfy our collecting urges.

[GoldenPhil]

4 hours ago, sovereignsteve said:

yes that has been my opinion and many others on this forum. they don't want people collecting the bullion sovereigns any more, they are quite happy producing overpriced proofs to satisfy our collecting urges.

Good explanation