sixgun

Quote

Vancouver-based gold production company Goldcorp Inc. made a 3000 oz gold deposit (valued at $4 million) into Tradewind Markets’ VaultChain platform, in what symbolizes an important landmark for blockchain’s ability to store and track precious metals in an institutional setting.

The deposit forms VaultChain’s ‘genesis block’ – in other words, the first block on its blockchain. Using VaultChain, Goldcorp will be able to sell gold directly to brokers and banks.

So Goldcorp vaulted 3000oz of gold which had blockchain title created - the first of more to come - the genesis block. These are similar to Kinesis coins. Blockchain title of ownership over gold. If this is on its own blockchain it is a currency, if it is on something like the Etherium platform it is tokens.

Any project of this sort needs billions flowing through. If it gets market penetration that will happen both on the wholesale and retail sides.

It has been mentioned there is a supporting central bank in the background. There is an online bank and Visa ?Mastercard involved. It is all registered with the FSA. As Maguire said in the youtube interview something to the effect there are some big entities friendly to Kinesis.

There needs to be enough gold sucked into Kinesis to trigger a reset then there will be all the velocity under the Sun. i want to mint as many KC as humanly possible and then see my royalties and KVT value get increased 100's of percent when gold resets. It will be staggering.

18 hours ago, Mildred said:

Hello everybody,

I just wanto to point to your attention, that this is one of the very few threads worldwide about Kinesis.

Plus, thanks to sixgun's lenghty and keep-it-simple explanations, it is AFAIK the best one.

This is the best source of information for Kinesis newbies worldwide. You don't need to believe me. Try to google around and you'll see

You are very lucky having sixgun here and you should be very thankful to him for the time and efforts he is spending here for us on this issue

I was interested in Kinesis some time ago. After long searching I landed on thesilverforum thanks to his posts

There is a kinesis community on telegram, created 3 weeks ago, but the comments over there are not very helpful for people (me) who haven't yet understood kinesis

Thanks sixgun

Your cheque is in the post - now the pressure is on and i will have to post more information.

There is some good information on the Telegram thread but the way these threads are arranged it is a bit of a task to wade through.

The 15% discount expired at the end of March. There is a 10% discount on KVT's at the moment. We do not know how many are left, they aren't saying. Any unsold KVT's left (unlikely) will be bought up by Kinesis.

How this fairs depends on the uptake of the Kinesis currency. If this is not used the project fails. There will be no income to pay KVT holders and minters.

i see the potential for a big increase in the value of KVT's especially in the current low interest environment. The KVT's full price is $1000. If you see them as a bond, a 5% yield would be good. So at 5% you would expect a yield of $50 a year. They are suggesting a yield of $2700 in the first year. At 5% the value of a KVT would go to $54 000. This sounds crazy. If the yield at year 5 of $160 000 happens with a 5% yield valuation they would be $3.2 million. Stuff like this happens.

I see Tom Couglin says that the Indonesian Post Office is keen on promoting the currency amongst its fellow post offices. Many of their customers are having to pay the high charges of Western Union and Moneygram to send money around. With millions of customers the post office is a good ally for Kinesis. He says other post offices in SE Asia will be joining in. This has the potential to bring in many millions of Kinesis currency users.

He also says he would be keen to link in with Goldmoney if there were synergy.

Another snippet i picked up is the income potential for minters. Currency is brought into existence when an investor brings gold or silver into the ABX vaulting system. Usually this will be  people deposit USD and buy gold on the platform. They then create their own blockchain title of ownership which is the currency. They can then release it into the world by selling it or spending it. These coins bear the minter's ID and they will get a royalty for as long as the coin exists, which is forever if no-one redeems the gold/silver. Every time it changes hands there is a charge and income is gained and as a coin's minter you get a share. The original understanding was you got the income from your coins. If your coins changed hands often you would gain more income but if they were held and never changed hands you will get nothing. Kinesis has now stated that the income on transactions will be averaged out. If you minted 1% of all the coins you will get your share of 1% of the average coin income. Probably no easier to calculate for Kinesis as it will all be on the computer but it smooths the income stream.

Additionally it will be possible to deposit metal into the system. It will be checked over but if not up to standard there may well be the chance to have the metal refined and then deposited in the system. There is hope for all those milky coins and battered silver currency coins.

@Pipers you are skeptical - fine. You have decided to give it a pass for now.

10 minutes ago, PansPurse said:

So if I don't have 100g (or maybe 1kg) of gold I can't redeem that as metal.

That's right you cannot redeem the gold currency if you have less than 100g or 1kg's worth depending on the currency type you hold. They cannot be expected to file off a few grams of gold from a bar. Compare with GLD you can redeem a minimum of 100,000 shares which currently over $12.5 million - except they won't let you redeem any unless you happen to be a bankster. 

3 minutes ago, PansPurse said:

The lower redemption limit in the "Kinesis Blueprint" you linked to a month or so back was a kilogramme of gold.

You can spend the kinesis currency at any amount. The redemption limit depends on the type of Kinesis currency you have. As i read it you can redeem 100g gold and 5kg silver as a minimum.

2 hours ago, Stu said:

Don't get me wrong, I am a strong advocate of sound/real money and would love to see something like Kinesis breakthrough however until people start pricing goods and services in weight of au/ag we all remain in a fiat, debt based monatary system where the price of gold fluctuates in the paper markets and is denominated in usd. If I had to put my mortgage on it I would stake the next massive move in this space if a full currency reset and everything will be denominated in special drawing rights. World money, people are half way there with cryptos already. 

There will be a marketplace where goods are priced in Kinesis currency - as i read it the likes of ebay and Amazon will be there. As a KVT holder i will be getting 20% of the profits from this.

As i also understand it i will be able to go to a retailer using Visa and use my Kinesis Visa card. i think i saw Mastercard will be involved as well and i expect MC will come onboard even if i am mistaken. i will be able to buy petrol and shopping etc etc with the card. The Kinesis currency is exchanged in the background and the retailer gets the fiat. This will be done by the Kinesis bank. As a KVT holder i will get profit from this and profit if by chance the currency i minted changes hands. So my costs are reduced.

So i am will be in gold and silver with my title of ownership being on the blockchain. i won't have fiat sat in the bank. Of course i will have some fiat, you should have some fiat for some bills and cash transactions but if this runs to plan i will move to the gold and silver title of ownership cryptocurrency system and not get caught in hyperinflating fiat currency.

1 hour ago, sovereignsteve said:

one thing though, if the gold price does reset to £5k or whatever that'll mean the end of my sovereign collecting days

Yes i think it will put an end to sovereign collecting days for many. If Kinesis comes off i will be standing in the wings for any going spare.

1 hour ago, Pipers said:

Kenisis, I can not get my head around the fact of the following =  Apart from its a business that has decided to use 'blockchain technology' thats it  then uses Gold silver backed tockens so the investor can use a credit/debit card against  Precious metal .  This sounds the same as other companies well Goldmoney.

I have been looking at Kenisis over the last couple of days, it could make investors a lot of money,  but it is not a unique investment IMO.  Plus it comes with big risks My advise is if you are prepared to lose ALL your investment and you like this company then give it a go. If you are not prepared to take risks, If you would like a debit card backed by gold then open an account with Goldmoney and and start looking at some of the big miners who are all looking into Blockchain technology

There are some aspects that are the same as Goldmoney. You can buy metal with both except you will be charged storage with Goldmoney when there will be none with Kinesis. You can spend the value through a card with both. You can redeem the metal with both.

i am buying KVT's which are shares in the company. i could buy shares in Goldmoney. The market cap of Goldmoney is $200 million USD - so it is a small outfit. i don't see a dividend yield with Goldmoney at the present time - at least not on yahoo finance.

It is a way of buying metal and then spending it on a card.

With Kinesis there is a currency. There is no new currency with Goldmoney.

i can send this currency electronically in seconds across the world, which means i can send gold or silver to anyone with a Stellar wallet. I cannot do that with Goldmoney. i am outside the USD fiat currency paradigm with Kinesis.

Can i 'mint' the currency by buying metal on the ABX. I can spend it on a card but i can also trade it on the stock market.

I will get a yield from my KVT's and i will get a royalty from the currency i will mint.

There is nothing i am aware of with the scale and connections to match Kinesis that does this.

You say it comes with big risks - i am not clear what these big risks are. There are risks in anything but i do not see big risks. This is a registered company in the Isle of Man not tin pan alley. There are experienced people involved. They have presented this at the St Moritz cryptocurrency conference to the scrutiny of the world. There is already cash down from big investors, already a strategy to get gold, already talks with miners, already a multi-centre vaulting system in place, already connections with other vaulting companies, already agreements with the German stock exchange and the Indonesian Post Office. There is already a tie up with a bank (to be announced), already credit card arrangements. The pieces are in place.

i can accept the profits that are suggested are large, if this comes of and gold resets a lot higher the gains will be staggering which should be a red flag and demand close scrutiny. i have looked closer and i am in.

43 minutes ago, sovereignsteve said:

I'm not bothered about the alleged convenience of a gold-backed currency but I'm happy to ride it's success if it works and forces a re-set in PM prices, which will suit me quite nicely as I have lots

i started the thread not particularly to 'promote' Kinesis but to highlight what i feel will be the trigger for a price reset.

We have just seen the oil-yuan contract launched. This will be Oil -->Yuan -->Gold (through the Shanghai gold exchange). Then we see a large miner in Goldcorp rather than selling gold into the LMBA price suppression cartel, deposit gold into a gold cryptocurrency. i am not familiar with this crypto but it looks like a pared down version of Kinesis and if it is out of the reach of the banksters it is another nail in the cartel's coffin.  It sucks physical supply out of their system which will forced it to leverage up even more. It is leveraged to the hilt and beyond as it is. When paper gold that does not exist has to be settled the, banks will want to settle it sooner (at a price nearer today's) than later (at a much higher price).

https://www.goldcorp.com/English/investors/news-releases/news-release-details/2018/Goldcorp-Deposits-the-First-Gold-on-Tradewind-Blockchain/default.aspx

Not Kinesis but here we have a miner Goldcorp kicking off a gold cryptocurrency. Gold is deposited and cryptocurrency coins are minted.

i note at the end of the piece we see

Quote

Mr. Garofalo [ President and CEO at Goldcorp ] added, "We believe Tradewind has the potential to change the gold investment industry like the introduction of ETFs did over 10 years ago."

What does David Garofalo mean by 'change' the gold investment industry? ETF's like SLV and GLD have damaged the gold and silver markets, taking people away from owning actual gold and silver. Hopefully the title of ownership cryptocurrencies outside the cartel will bring them back.

23 minutes ago, tbone said:

Very interesting, thanks sixgun.  I'll try to find out what the minimum redemptions are (or if you find out let us know).  Reasonable physical redemption is the only way to truly keep things honest imo.

This is on page 25 of the blueprint https://kinesis.money/documents/kinesis-blueprint.pdf

There are abbreviations i am not fully familiar with at the moment, the minimum amounts depend on the system the metal is in. It says

Min. Physical Withdrawal Quantity [GOLD] - 1,000 KAU (1,000 fine grams) - 100 KAU (100 fine grams)

Minimum Withdrawal Quantity [SILVER] - 10,000 KAG (10,000 gram)  - 5,000 KAG (5,000 grams)

So we are looking at a 100g gold bar and 5 x 1kg of silver.

8 minutes ago, KDave said:

I think it was 800 USD can't quite remember. Too much for me to punt at the moment. I'll probably regret not pulling the trigger. 

The tokens  (KVT's) are $850 at the moment. The full price is $1000, they are on a time dependent discount.

14 hours ago, Martlet said:

What's backing the KVT, and why so much?   Major tech driven projects are asking for $20-30m and this project asks for 10 times that. 

There is a more detailed spend laid out on page 41 of the current blueprint. https://kinesis.money/documents/kinesis-blueprint.pdf

1 minute ago, tbone said:

Thanks for the explanation sixgun.  Can someone who holds a digital coin convert that into a physical coin in any way? 

The currency is blockchain title of ownership of gold or silver. So if you have 1 x KWG you have title of ownership on a specific 1kg gold bar. You can redeem the KWG for the bar. There are lower limits on redemption. i don't remember the lower limits but they aren't something huge. When the coins are 'cashed in' for the metal those currency coins are extinguished.

11 hours ago, matrawr said:

Is this likely to affect the PM's I currently own? I see the price on bullioncoin is about $42 but the silver price is less than half that why is that? Silvers silver right?

Even if this is a modest success it will pull more physical out of the supply chain and bring forward the date when there are significant failures of delivery and a forced reset in price.
i don't know what BullionCoin is up to these days. i just looked at the website and the latest news is from last September.

11 hours ago, matrawr said:

I'm seeing it's equal to grams of silver. I do of course have reservations about things like this. Aren't Governments looking to crack down on cryptos? Also what about if someone at bullioncoin were to obtain gold/silver illegally and government officials caught on?

Aren't governments looking to crack down on cryptos? We see stuff about this. Then we see governments green lighting cryptos. The banks do not want it b/c it takes away their monopoly on creating currency and people will generally opt for a currency with intrinsic value over unbacked.

What is obtaining gold/silver illegally? To me this is handling stolen goods. i think the gold governments handle is generally stolen. It will be bought in the physical markets. This is what these people like Maguire do day in day out with or without Kinesis. In addition miners will be feeding their output into this which will seriously disrupt the supply side and be a massive boon to miners.

1 hour ago, tbone said:

I like Greg Hunter, he does good interviews for the most part.  But I watched this hoping for some explanation of how Kinesis works and why it will be any different than promises to be "backed by gold", but it seemed more like a PR/sales pitch to me.  Getting people to accept a digital form of gold, especially those who understand how rigged the Comex system is, will require a lot of explaining and Trust.  I think whistleblower Andrew McGuire is there really to instill Trust.  I'm just not buying it yet, but maybe I'm still in the mindset "if you don't hold it you don't own it".  Will be interesting to see how things shake out anyway.

i kept hearing Greg say keep it short and to the point, so i don't think he wanted too deep a conversation on this.

Kinesis works were you buy metal on the Allocated Bullion Exchange. You push a button on the ABX MetalDesk trading platform and create a blockchain title of ownership - these are the Kinesis coins - there were be gold and silver ones. There 1x KAG = 10g silver, 1x KWS = 1000 oz silver, 1x KAU= 1g gold and 1x KWG= 1kg gold. The W denotes wholesale coins. You can hold these coins on the Stellar blockchain network, (KVT's are held on the Etherium blockchain and the currency will be Stellar) you can just hold them, you can spend them, you can send them to someone else, or you can trade them through the German stock exchange. There will be a Kinesis bank - a mobile bank is linking in (don't know the name yet) and you will be able to spend them on Visa. Even if the retailer does not take Kinesis that will still be possible as the bank will convert the Kinesis to fiat. Transactions incur a charge and those who originally created the coins (Minters) will get a share (royalty) each time they change hands for as long as their coins exist. Coins cease to exist when whoever has the coins exchanges them for the underlying physical.

1 hour ago, Lowlow said:

I think you pays your money and you takes your chances.

The KVT's are shares and as such are pure risk. The coins are title of ownership over metal so by buying a coin you are doing is buying metal with a blockchain title. The risk is you do not hold the metal. We have heard of many outfits that never had the metal. There is SLV and GLD which likely do not have all the metal. For me there are two risks.

That the gold/silver will be stolen by the authorities. This of course could happen with any vaulting system but Kinesis is attacking the banking cartel. The other risk is you mint coins after buying gold or silver on the ABX and they don't sell. That the idea does not catch on. No-one want to use them.

6 minutes ago, matrawr said:

@sixgunis this what all the kinesis talk is about? Is it just gold? There's one called bullioncoin

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-24/cryptocurrency-backed-by-gold-being-developed-perth-mint/9352036

Last summer the Allocated Bullion Exchange and BullionCoin were going to launch a gold and silver cryptocurrency. It was to be called BullionCoin. Maguire did an interview about how the gold market was going to breakout. He did not say much more specific. There were two investors who would be buying gold in this new crypto currency. They were stumping up for 250 tonnes of gold. As i understand it Maguire attempted to buy this but the LBMA would not do the deal. As it was the ABX who was the vaulting side of the currency walked away as BullionCoin wanted to vault elsewhere but mainly b/c the gold and silver would not belong to the currency holders but would be an asset of BullionCoin. This was seen quite rightly as unacceptable.

The ABX carried on with the momentum gained and are launching Kinesis. There will be 4 metal backed coins. KAU and KWG the gold coins and KAG and KWS the silver coins.

There are a number of these. BullionCoin is one. There is Onegram and others. Several offer a yield on those who put gold and silver into the system to back the currency. The ABX is international already and with the likes of Maguire there are lots of contacts and big players come on board. The first 100 000 shares (KVT's) were sold straightaway to one Chinese hedge fund when it was launched at the St Moritz cryptocurrency conference earlier this year. They have not advertised yet. The Greg Hunter youtube video was the most mainstream the publicity has been so far. If i weren't a client of Maguire already the first i would have heard would have been this week.

Just now, Martlet said:

Nothing but the prospect of their future capital gain.  This project is supposed to be about being backed by gold. 

Well these businesses would traditionally be valued on future earnings. This is basically how every business is valued. Yes there are fixed assets but cash flow, earnings, business plan and management are what matter in valuations. There will be vaulting systems 

How do you create a worldwide currency system? Where will gold and silver be safely vaulted around the world? How will you staff this? When you are running a 'central bank' i expect there will be capital reserves - they will be holding some paper currencies. They will be the market makers in this - this requires capital reserves. 'The physical precious metals are stored within fully insured, world-class vaulting facilities in Sydney, Singapore, Hong Kong, Dubai, London, Liechtenstein, Zurich and New York.' i don't supposed that comes for free. If i were presented with a business vaulting $billions of precious metal at numerous locations stating they were setting up a worldwide currency that would trade on the German stock market and they said they financing all of it with $20 - 30 million i would avoid. They would go bust before they started. i have started microscopic businesses which needed £100's of thousands and it was tight.

26 minutes ago, Martlet said:

 What's backing the KVT, and why so much?   

Major tech driven projects are asking for $20-30m and this project asks for 10 times that.  Secondly, the claims for yield are so high, I don't see how they'll achieve the predicted volume of $850bn in year one, with impact on projections for future years.  Then consider fees must come from the holders/ themselves, so they'll need to be trading amongst themselves.  A lot.  If it was a straight bullion for crypto offering without the yield claims, it would look a lot more sensible. 

The KVT's are blockchain shares in the business. What backs shares in Ebay or Visa or so many companies?

Dropbox launched recently. Four years ago it raised $350 million venture capital.

i agree the yields on KVT's are high. i have seen number crunching on the Telegram thread i put the link up for. Personally i would be happy with 1/10 of these yields.

The yields come for the currencies changing hands. There are going to be 4 metal based coins, KAU and KAG, the lower denomination retail coins and the wholesale coins KWG and KWS.  How would the currency system run if there were no fees? How would ebay work if it did not charge fees? How would any of the payment and trading systems work unless there were fees to grease the wheels? The difference is 'we' get a big bite of these fees instead of the international bankers.

At the moment KVT's are being sold. These are the Kinesis Velocity Tokens. They are shares in the business. They are not the currency which comes later. The KVT's like all shares have a chance to go to zero. i think this is unlikely but there is always that chance. There is a chance any of or even all the current class of cryptocurrencies could go to zero.

If you think a share offering is in a business with good management and good prospects then if you have risk capital it may be worth a punt. The upside in this project if it does as projected is vast. The product is a system and framework to monetise gold and silver on the blockchain. National fiat currencies are all on a path to zero. The majority of crytocurrencies selling themselves as replacements are unbacked and one could argue are little better than what they vie to replace. As national currencies crumble there is a big need for honest money. As the paper gold and silver markets rock and are exposed as little more than a confidence trick there is a big need to a system of honest trading for gold and silver. Enter Kinesis. i believe the time is right.

It was interesting to note, amongst many points made, that the silver market is very tight. That this will be the silver bullet killing the price fixing game. This comes from people who are dealing (in tonnes) on the wholesale market, not buying a handful of coins from dealers. We get no indications of this from the controlled media. If people knew they would buy silver until their hands bleed - (which is what i keep saying of course).

Telegram

https://web.telegram.org/#/im?p=s1375042597_4589372261987058517

10 minutes ago, morezone said:

Today is a happy day for me.  Managed to source these gold ornamental items.  Now have to patiently wait for them to get to me.

Did Darth Vader say " Luke, I am your father" or "No, I am your father"?

On 3/15/2018 at 20:19, Sovsaver said:

It’s on the obverse, behind Queen’s head, looks like a letter I (or Z maybe). Next the “gratia”.

Also, some under her chin and possibly cleaned, but apart from all that...we’re good?

The Z is obviously a privy mark. It is the mark of Zorro.

43 minutes ago, Lea79 said:

I did think it was a little girly for you gentlemen.  You’ve gotta appreciate the beauty in it tho. 

It is quite practical.  It’s 13inches long!! Should fit all my proofs in boxes, graded coins and my loose coins.  The top tray slots can be removed to make more room. 

The marquetry and inlaid mother of pearl on the outside of that box is really nice. i cannot see the panel in the inside of the lid but the general layout appears Chinese.

No good for my silver stack, i need packing crates but the gold would fit in there nicely.

1 hour ago, Cornishfarmer said:

thinking of starting a run of 20 francs gold coins.    Am I right that they have about 18 designs?    How hard are they to find?  More of a stacker than collector so don’t want to go too far over spot.   Any tips of advice greatly received 

https://taxfreegold.co.uk/france20francs.php

Types & Dates

This table shows a list of the different types of French 20 Francs, and their date ranges.

As SovTracker says the two spurs can be seen on the coin

1 hour ago, Big23 said:

Three for the family

Thanks @Alun the boxes arrived perfectly packaged and are #awesome

These cases are superb - i have not handled one but they look well made. A quality product. If Alun is actually making them i take my hat off to him.

@Xander i keep promising myself i will get the young head Elizabeth sovereigns. i must pull the trigger next time i have some play money.