swanky

Im so fed up with this I sold all my gold stocks today!!
I have literally had enough now & think there are better avenues to invest.
I have more than enough physical to weather me in a storm. 

FCUK the PM markets its crazy. 
I shall catch it when it starts moving again. Im out. 

When it's sold on here it's snapped up pretty much straight away, minimal premium, great for playing the spot game. It's durability is great, no need to worry about gloves as it's passed many hands, no need to worry about milk spots and there his years of history that one day will die out, there is no need to worry about fakes, there are a few and almost feels like a win when you find one. Bullion dealers don't really sell them so to accumulate you have to rely on a honest peer to peer trade. 

@HerefordBullyun explain this if physical delivery is everything in determining current pricing?
 
the correct price of something is which you can get buyers and sellers for all of the current stock available?
currently 1 billion toz sellers and buyers are agreeing to make the trade in silver at the current prices($22).
as I've asked @Minimalist many times without an answer, I don't know how many people currently
willing to spend £30/toz for bullion silver but it's not 1 billion toz worth of buyers. this means £30/toz
is currently too much to be able to find buyers for all of the current 1 billion toz ready to be sold and
delivered. anyone who claim that currently silver should be priced at £30/toz or more is simply wrong.
 
HH

All paper markets are manipulated.  It's a sad reality, but there's nothing particularly special about the manipulation in Silver.  Yes it's annoying, but other commodities see highly leveraged, non-deliverable shorts, attempting to force their prices down.  Some do it for an instant profit, others so that they can buy cheaper deliverable futures from legitimate producer sales.  Some producers get squeezed into selling at a loss, just trying to keep going and pay the bills, with some eventually ending up going bust.  Supply drops off and physical shortages mean that the paper price detaches from reality.  In a healthy market, paper and physical would be closely correlated.  But these types of problems are popping up everywhere.  It's really about the financialisaton of everything.  A huge industry has been built up around making money from producing no product or service for anyone but the trader.  The futures markets were supposed to offer producers long term security, but instead they've become a casino for banksters and hedge funds.  But even like this, Silver producers still use the futures market!  And they still accept the poor prices for their product, because it offers some stability and the ability to choose ore grade in advance of production.  They only abandon the paper markets when the discount becomes too crazy and they end up just accepting the physical rate on the day.
When paper becomes that stretched from reality, buyers and sellers of physical are still trading.  They just do it off exchange in private deals.  If the demand is significantly higher than supply though, and there really is nothing left to deliver, then there's nothing on earth that can stop that from being expressed in their agreed physical price.  Nothing!
Take for example the newspapers recently complaining that petrol stations were gouging the poor motorist.  It was seen as disgraceful that petrol stations were selling fuel at £2 a litre!!  Clearly as supply ran short, the price went up.  What's actually wrong with that???  In fact, I think it didn't go up quick enough, and not enough stations got round to raising their prices!!!  If more of them had ramped the price up quickly, those who barely drive would've stayed at home rather than filling up both cars full. Just about everyone I know has a full tank of fuel now, and they're not going to need any more of it for a while.  Prices will be back to normal soon in those independent stations.
Everywhere you look, there's a battle between producers, retailers and users.  It's been going on for centuries in the rice futures market, and it's not going to come to an end even if we abandon fiat currency.  It's the nature of buying and selling for profit.
Anyway, these days, Silver is essentially performing like a base metal.  People might wish for it to perform as a monetary instrument, (myself included btw), but it's not going to until the day that fiat currency is completely destroyed in a hyper inflation catastrophe.  Only then, when gold is too expensive for the masses, will Silver make a comeback.  But those conditions for Silver to return to being precious, are highly unlikely in the current system.  For now at least, it remains an industrial metal with a value essentially related to the cost of mining it, and to it's future scarcity as deposits wane. Silver regaining the glory days of being a monetary instrument is I'm afraid, just a pipe dream. 
Now, if they were to stop charging VAT on physical copper... and they started making lovely ten kilo Britannias... I'd be a copper bug in a heartbeat!!! 

So basically your a supporter of immoral money, enslavement by debt and pass it on to your children and thier children? Well done you must be so proud!  Dividing the gap between the rich and killing the middle  and working class also. Its baby boomers whos shafted people like me and many others to get on the housing ladder for self efecasted greed. Walk a mile in those shoes........
I think its far from luanacy - all that we see at the moment is socialism for the super rich. If you really understood Mises economics NO one would pay tax how does that sound or are you already a part of 1%, that dont pay it already? are you writing the response this from your yacht in the maldives?
 

I can see the problem here. Theres a difference between how one would like things to be, and how the world actual works. We adapt to it or howl at the moon about how wrong it all is. That is lunacy. 

So, let me get this straight. Asking where the 45% of annual supply (that doesnt exist) on a short is "irrelevant and purposely complicated"
Astonishing… Astounding… Incredible… 

Trillions of derivatives in so many different markets, say a market can do this, quite legally. 
The question is where can market demand not be met without price impact over time.  Why are there not buyers in secondary, bidding up physical at ever increasing prices above the market rate?  Isn't that what you'd expect if there were so much unmet demand? 

it's rubbish because it's irrelevant and purposely there to add complication.
 
stop beating about the bush and come up with buyers for £30/toz bullion silver.
 
HH

I don't care about the irrelevant rubbish that @sixgun like to go off topic about.
finding a buyer for pete at £30/toz bullion silver not real world enough for you?
talk is cheap. make belief demand is cheap.
last I heard, pete is ready to sell to a buyer at £30/toz. where's the buyer?
if you can't even find a buyer at £30/toz then talk of pricing silver above that is nonsense.
 
HH

There's a rational explaination, that market only want the derivative, not the physical product. 
You can continue to believe demand that is unmet with price unaffected, with no spill over into secondary markets.  I cant. 

Its incredible! absolutely incredible!
So the ratio 188:1 is nonsense? These ratios can be met?
This is incredible. Look at these keynesians attempting to deny reality out of desperation. Look at them.

The only thing is nonsense is the paper markets, rigging and defrauding the market!

Bottom line is price reflects wider supply/demand of the market.  Whatever shenanigans in the daily price action, if buyers cant acquire the product they require they will raise the price until their demand is met.  So the silver price approximates to supply/demand.  If as claimed its suppressed, there's either huge unmet demand that just accept not obtaining their product, or supply that continues to under sell their product.  Its irrational and nonsense this state would be stustained. 

Look the reason there is a disconnect between the COMEX and the physical market for (gold and) silver is there is an oversupply of (gold and) silver on the futures market. HH has told you. Be told.
i saw Sirius Report posted today that 45% of annual production of physical silver was sold in the futures market yesterday. This is what HH means by oversupply of silver. What HH fails to say of course is NO-ONE on God's Earth could get hold of 45% of annual production to sell. The sellers didn't sell any silver b/c they didn't have any silver to sell in the first place. The algos sold 45% of annual production in one day NAKED short. They sold silver they didn't have, that they will never have in order to crash the price.
After the BIS OPEX got squared off this afternoon at exactly the BIS's sweet spot price, then price took off as short covering occurred. 
Momentum traders with algos were selling down the metals and playing off bond prices and the metals. They sold off massive amounts of non existent silver to trigger stops encouraged by bid pulling by the banks and the BIS aiming to square off unallocated positions in the run up to the end of year Basel III rules. It is a game involving oceans of fiat (the BIS plays with $trillions of derivatives) and mountains of non-existent metal. 
Don't tell me this is manipulation - don't tell me that the market prices are being manipulated with vast number of contracts for gold and silver that doesn't exist. This is just normal fair price, back and forth trading. i wish you would get real and be told.
 

maybe andrew maguire could be helpful next time and give you a heads up before the silver price is about to drop 4%?
(instead of claiming manipulation after the drops have happened.)
but it doesn't see that miners extract silver at ~$16/toz(aisc supply) and the market is currently pricing silver at ~$22/toz(the demand side).
markets are about demand and supply.
expecting something that costs $16 to produce to be sold for $3,000 - who is the one that is doing the rip off deception/manipulation?
name anyone who is currently willing to pay $3,000/toz for bullion silver?
 
HH

Let's see how the week finishes out.  There seems to be a lot of bears around at the moment, but I still think (as I said last week) that this week will close flat or above it's open and that "the bottom will be in".  Looks like a pretty strong push for the stops was made but gold has dragged silver back up by the scruff.  I fully expected the dive for the stops.  The coming close on Friday's going to be important.

I have been buying, and the price keeps dropping, looking for the news on why this is happening. This dude says Elon the muskrat plans to mine space but could just be a dump and pump after his increased acquisition??? I don't know ? Can anyone confirm the latest market factors in their opinion or give links ?
 
 

He has always presented well-reasoned arguments, always open to rethinking and learning, and never have I seen him 'ad hominem' others.

He has always presented well-reasoned arguments, always open to rethinking and learning, and never have I seen him 'ad hominem' others.

@Kman says is now banned?
@ChrisSilver?

China and Russia will decide the value - He who has the gold makes the rules. That's as long as the BIS doesn't get in their first and revalues gold. In the run up to year end and full Basel III compliance, the BIS is getting rid of all the unallocated paper gold on its books. This is causing all the volatility in the metals markets. Basel III downgrades the unallocated spot gold (paper spot gold) and upgrades real allocated physical gold. Some people might say this is a move to stabilise the system, like China is doing when she blows off the froth and tightened the rules last year so speculative bubbles like Evergrande get burst.
How could you exchange your physical for digital? - well you could sell it for digital gold like you do for fiat. There might well also be systems like the (EPD) Exchange Physical for Digital that Kinesis has. So you could deposit metal in the system and get KAU and KAG. 
Some people have been taking notice for a long time and joining the dots. i don't know who these people are, it can't be me b/c i'm a lunatic.

i am hearing through Maguire and through Kinesis (wholesale physical silver) that at the moment in the paper market conditions are vapour thin, not so in the physical market, demand for silver is massive. Kinesis took delivery of 24 tonnes of silver yesterday from Russia at the Lichtenstein vault and a further 100 tonnes is being sought for immediate delivery (but the market is tight so it isn't available right now).
Maguire has commented somewhere in the last week or so that refiners cannot sell above certain limits or their banks take action against them. He mentioned a Russian refiner - so i wonder if this is the one who delivered the 23 tonnes yesterday but can't supply the other 100 tonnes (but may well have at least some of it).
A few years ago, about 6 months before Kinesis started Maguire talked about the gold market taking off. A massive order was being placed for gold. This would have sent the gold market into outer space. Maguire got some stick as the gold market did nothing. The order was refused by the bullion banks. 
If you want a tonnage order of gold or silver you cannot just get it. You might not be able to fill it for months. But with the price of metal on the paper markets on the floor - one would think it would be plentiful. From the charts no-one wants the metals. The charts reflect paper in the COMEX and on the spot market. If you want large volume orders filled you will not pay the chart price. It will be significantly higher. So if you can't buy larger amounts of metal at the chart price what does the chart price mean? What is the chart about? It is a fictional price for volume orders. At best it is a rough indicator. If there were a true market price in an unfettered market then we would be looking at much higher prices. Chartists look at the charts and think this reflects the true price. It doesn't. They have no sight into the physical world beyond a handful of coins.

My 2019's are also spotless.

My 2019's are also spotless.