kimchi

Gold in 1829 and gold in the second half of 2022

Sorry to hear about your late dad buddy. And best of luck to your son, I shudder even when I am near the gates of lympstone!

Yep and it is sad to see this is how they make a living but that is the market. They build a relationship this way and then offer you the latest proof coin. Triple retail and some take them up on it because they have built the trust like Barry here. 

ie a front address to make them sound posh being in Mayfair, yours for less than £100 a month but could be really ran out of a back bedroom in Peckham 
ive been stacking since mid 2000s and never heard of this outfit before 

Well in fact - A dealer I spoke to me yesterday told me explicit that his business was a Mint Marque customer, very very candid!! nice chap
- So that company really is trade access to coins! then pumping up multiples of RRP at Mint
 
And another example GreatBritainCoinExchange - put an ad on Ebay at 5 minutes past midnight, on the day of the Portrait Launch (that did not happen) advertising 5 oz Gold Portrait coin - for £49,995
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/334319322406?hash=item4dd6fc0526:g:3v8AAOSwcURh~53j
Did the owner of that business Eric Darko, (which has only existed for 4 months)  get that from a Mint Marque customer or is he himself a Mint Marque customer
https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/officers/rp7gc7oW3Zj8hBynCUpGKGrZ67U/appointments
All questions that I think should be asked of the Royal Mint..
Do the Royal Mint really want their exclusive (in this case-NOT available the public) Very expensive  Gold products hawked on Ebay within minutes. really? (in this case 8 hours before a launch that did not happen!!
(and there are lots of others,,,,)
 
 
there is exclusive VIP access for wealthy collectors and there is the trade taking the p*** and the RM's blind eye because 'sales are good'
 
I have suggested anyone behaving like this, should be an EX Mint MArque customer, for reason given.
 
 
either way, Royal Mint should GET a grip - some (how many?) Mint Marque customers are abusing this. In Luxury Brand world, they would be EX VIP customers for doing this.

Really - you seem to be defending this - do have a vested interest - anonymous person - just an odd question
 
Do you really go into a high street jeweler who are authorised retailers of multiple high profile brands and buy an expensive watch..
and first think.. maybe I'll go and ring up the supplier of the watch to check whether this is actually RRP and I am not buying  it in fact on the secondary market.. and maybe the shop is lying about being an aurised dealer...  Really!
 
Maybe you do.. Maybe you do lots of 'research' -
But the public have consumer protection laws in this country and there are trading standards.. the general public would make a reasonably assumption that no research is needed..
 
but hey

And my point social media bubble, etc is that people who do not know a great deal about coins, would know all this, and you are just laughing at their foolishness - about not doing research..
 
Like me, if I buy a Rolex, or a Cartier watch, on launch day of that product, why would i even think to myself research is needed.
As the only way that dealer, could get that product, is directly from the company itself.. ( Know my wife is an authorized Cartier Reseller, and Cartier watch the grey market like a hawk) 
 
Do you really think this is ok.. buyer beware and all that. but the coin industry seems to be operating outside of all norms or consumer expectations of how things operate.
Why should the public have to do research on Royal Mint Products that appear at coin dealers on launch day. The RM needs to get a grip on this. imho

NO !
 
given speculation here - it was Bullion House -
The seem to think I wouldn't have thought to archive the relevant web pages. and also take screen captures of the Trusted Partners webpage - which I sent to the Royal Mint.
 
All they had to do on Monday, was simply refund me, and I would return it.. but they started playing silly buggers
 
But, they are a well established company, so I am going to hope they simple refund the money today, as I have bought ov £20,000 of gold bullion from them  and have been nothing but (previously) satisfied with the service, and I had even recommended many gold buyers other to use them.. Hence my concern!
 
The confabulated RM to dealer supply train is an issue, that the RM I think do need to get a grip on.
As far as a consumer would think - RM product being sold on all dealers website at the day of the launch of an RM proof, would be at RRP. not multiples of.
So I passed that concern on to RM, Consumer standards and trading standards...
Millions of pounds worth of products, massive RRP markups (misrepresentation of provenance) and how exclusive RM products either available on the RM website, or special customers only, is really a bit murky.
RM need to get a grip on product to trade business model.. which was the subject of this post

Hey @BarryWoods,
Is this the first time you are buying into the Royal Mint hype? This has happened before and several times too.
Nothing will change - no matter who you speak with, in the Mint
I don't know how many of these so called Gothic Crowns you have bought. If you can keep them, great. Else, cut your losses and take some time off from new releases.
I also don't know who this "dealer" or "trade partner" is. It was made very clear that only Mint Marque customers will be offered the plain edge. I know two fellow collectors / flippers / hobbyists who spend enough to be "Platinum Mint Marque" members, but, deliberately choose not to. Both have account managers and weren't offered the "plain edge" version since it was strictly for Mint Marque Customers. Therefore, whoever you bought these coins from would have bought from a Mint Marque customer. 
Yes, there are exceptions to the rule (there always will be). For example, the Mint Marque customers were offered a choice between the plain and the milled edge versions. They couldn't get both. However, there are some select few who received both. Most people here will know who the exceptions are. However, that's not the point. The point is, there is no way these things can be enforced. Also, as it has been mentioned somewhere on the thread above, the model is working well for RM. They already know what is happening. Their staff are on this forum as well as the Facebook Group I think you are referring to. Interestingly, I sometimes get asked by fellow numismatists if they didn't get offered a certain denomination by their account manager because they "flipped" the coin on Facebook! Although they are "watching", nothing will change. Nothing will change, because this is not the first time this has happened. They know it is a cycle. And I know nothing will change because I had discussed this with key staff at RM, during what was then, my monthly catch-up with them. Now these are less frequent. However, the same personnel, a key decision maker had tried to explain to me the rationale behind having a Mint Marque exclusive plain edge version. I don't buy the rationale. I mostly do not agree with their thinking. However, this brings them the most profit and hence why will they do anything different?
Did you know that even you could become a reseller of Royal Mint coins if you wanted to? However, did you also know that if you did decide to do that, you won't just be able to buy the Great Engravers series. You will also have to buy the Peter Rabbits and the Little Miss Sunshines. You won't just be able to buy the 2oz gold proofs. You will also have to buy the silver proofs. How do you think these dealers manage to stay in business? They end up making losses with the less popular releases and then these key releases (usually just once or twice in a year) make up for those losses. Did you also know that these dealers wouldn't have got the plain edge variety directly from the Mint? They would have had to buy them from Mint Marque customers at a premium. 
Lets say you have an issue with the Mint Marque customers reselling these coins. Although there are five levels of Mint Marque customers, majority of the limited editions go to the Platinum Plus and Platinum customers. Do you personally know any genuine collectors who never sell coins after spending more than £100,000 a year with a single mint? Let's take the example of the second coin in the Music Legends series - Elton John. The 2oz gold proof Elton John recently sold at an auction that only yielded 20% above spot price (and over £1,250 less than RRP) to the consigner after buyer's premium? The mintage of this coin is just 50! These were mostly exclusively snapped up by Platinum Plus Mint Marque customers. What does this tell us? There aren't even 50 genuine collectors of that series. However, the first coin in the series has rarely been seen for sale or auction in the past year. The series got ruined as the mintage numbers for the third coin in the series were tripled! and even more for the fourth coin. This is how RM function. The Mint cannot sustain a business such as theirs solely on the basis of "genuine collectors". The collectors only exist if there is exclusivity. You either take the risk and buy into a series at its inception or leave it alone completely. What are 1/4 ounce gold proof Queen's Beasts selling for these days? Not more than £500 a piece (there could be one or two designs fetching more than the others and this figure is an average; based on my own buying and selling experience). Once again, this is less than RRP for most coins in the series. Who would have thought that such a popular series will be fetching negative returns for long term collectors? Sadly, this is the reality. 
Why do you think these coins - Gothic Crown restrikes - will do well in the long run? Do you know that the total mintage of this re-struck Gothic Crown in 2oz gold proof is more than twice that of the Una and the Lion restrike? Did you also know that originally the basis of selecting the designs for the series was that the original would have been struck in extremely limited numbers? Gothic Crown does not even fit the bill of the original criteria for selection since they were minted in relatively large numbers. Ultimately it is a business and RM will do what the market will buy into. Similarly, the hype around these releases was always created by dealers who decided to buy into an idea as long as the mintages were limited and the average public weren't buying into the series. When RM launched this series with the Una and the Lion, did you expect it to do as well as it did? Did you think the subsequent releases will "perform" in a similar fashion. Most people hadn't even heard of "The Three Graces" - the marble statue perhaps yes, but surely not the coin. Una and the Lion has been a legendary coin and therefore the demand for the restrike somewhat makes sense. What also worked in its favour is that the average public didn't buy into the concept initially. Which meant most of the allocation was bought up by dealers around the world. This restricted the supply in the open market and hence the price went up. Immediately there were calls upon the Mint to increase the mintage as they could now see the demand. Moreover, the Mint also wanted a piece of this pie. The subsequent releases even saw a 10oz version in both silver and gold. 
What next? My advice to anybody who asks me about buying commemorative coins is that if you get it directly from the Mint on release day, go for it. Keep it, if you like it. Flip it, if others like it more. However, if you don't get it on release day from the Mint, do not buy it from the secondary market (whether you want to call them "Trusted Trade Partners" or "Dealers" or "Annabelle" - they all form the secondary market) because of the hype. In fact, do not buy it at all  Just wait and watch and in a couple of years (or less) if you still want it, you will probably be paying less than RRP. Unlikely for coins like Una and the Lion, but, applies to most others.
 
 

The Facebook groups did NOT do this to me  - and it is a good chunk  of the new additions of customers to the  market, each has thousands of members, I joined these much later on.. 
The customer does choose but the market is rigged - 350 mintage for 2 oz milled edge - but only 150 on sale at website at launch..
Somehow 200 of this mintage, brand new products end up at coin dealers, at double RRP or higher . at launch...
But the RM does NOT, it says allocate them to dealers...
So what is the routes to the dealer. When anyone buying from tat dealer would assume RRP..  and a direct allocation from the RM of those coins, with an invoice and paper trail.
 
There are NO authorized RM dealers - So they are being bought from RM prior to launch, in cases where these are coin businesses (but member no authorized dealers?)
Then passed around the trade - I heard of one dealer, buying 5 Gothics, from some that could get 5 but did not want one (I was offered one) and eventually they end up for sale at double or more RRP that RM would charge on the website for that particular coin.
 
If a customer buys a Cartier product from my wife business-new' (Cartier authorized retailer)- each item will have an invoice directly with Cartier to show for it.)
 
If you all can't see this is a very dodgy way to do business for the Royal Mint. I'm just lost for words.
 
Premium brands control, dealer, location allocation, grey market rigorously.. and especially conflicts of interests - which appear significant.
 
This is nuts.

Both - The RM know how this is happening. I have to assume a blind eye , because profits  re good, queues on the website (how dis that happen - I'll sow you)   - They enable it by their 'business model' and  know it is going on, to be fair  proof nevr did very well at launch, stock git to trade etc. BUT  social media came along... coins started selling out secondary market boomed - Facebook groups with member s trading all started up, attracting thousands of followers, sale boomed private trading boomed.
 
But, it is fueling a speculative bubble that will burst and take the public down with it - imho
 
As at some point nobody will be buying........ and we know what happens next... no buyers,, lots of seller.s.  - How soon?
 
That and some of these VIP Customers - Are registered as limited companies - and sell Coins service, grading,  auction consignment - to there gullible  members of Private Coin Facebok grups they run, and also hype up coins, to push the market sales - all the members flood the RM website - then gratefully get the VIP RM 'customer' guy running his Facebook group to send off their coin for grading - money for him - rolling in - and several thousand chep silver coins with grade 69 and 70 and photos posted of these coins slabbed, and everyone thinks they are going to get rich -no, just a few peole are getting rich-  his special cpins instantly multiply in price) etc,etc 
 
That the same individual is an agent for companies that are also ROYAL MINT partners. is just sick!!  (this is Royal Mints problem - Big Time..)
And there loads of others doing similar things - hence the madness in prices over the last few years and the public rushing in, because sure fire investment - as they watch Youtube Videos of that same guy waving gold coins around. - which they have got, and will get to auction first, or flip again, because prices are even higher now.. and must secure some more,  EBAY, EBAY, EBAY.
 
Friends and family- Aunty and Granpa want coins to -  to invest their savings (sure fire growth vs 0.5% interest in the bank) big rush to the website - hardly any stock there - somehow despite no "direct dealer"  allocation from RM dealers have stock.. and better coins not on RM website - Gosh the thinking goes, they must have sold out really quickly at RM (but they were never there) VIP cutomers had them who were trade.. they see the prices BUT it is higher .. Must secure it, get some more, all sizes, then ask on your Facebook group what is this worth if it grades 70 - wise coin sage Facebook owners and fellow peers in the group speculate higher prices - Facebook guru - kindly send all his members coins for grading, for a fee. (because he has a business as a grading company same grading company that is PARTNER of the RM) and the bubble gets bigger....
 
 
Have been observing this for months.
Getting worried my coin will be ok - better get the portrait, buy a couple more on ebay (weeks making offers, getting a bargain - thought I'd beaten the herd, been clever.....)
 
Classic speculative bubble - this time some of how/what happens in plain site.. and my personal example. of being sucked in
 
Lots of public will get sucked in lose an awful lot of money, finacial disaster, family breakups, suicides that has all been done before..... fascinating and depressing and stressful  to be a part of this one...
 
Trying to talk to RM about issue for a while...
 
I thought I was never going to be caught like this (but a respected dealer- Trusted partner of RM, recommended after bullion buying, have you heard of Una and the Lion, The Three Graces,  (Our FAcebook Guru Friend and similar others did very well with them at auction, lots of silver graces facebook member coins graded - for a fee - aswell)
 
Dealer say to me on the phone (nothing writen fdown) well here is this Gothic Crown I can get  guaranteed pair a 'special pair' plain edge  VIP only, will double in value, maybe more - but it is expenesive - but I braved the website queue excited - 176 in it - As did thousands of other - NOT like the old days at the RM website - cobwebs - Proof, that this is a winner everyone else wants one is musty be good, it must be safe - and the bubble gets bigger just 'missed securing MY COIN -
Back to the Trusted RM delaer to get my special coins.  Get onto Ebay to get some more
Rushed out to get my sure fire winner and I was part of the crowd - that shows the Tulip Bubble happened, the South sea bubble happened, I had read it all and though how do intelligent people get sucked in - Well - here we are. 
 
Nearly got sucked in a lot further - actually quite depressed how I got caught (and I have been ) but it was nearly double.. (three Portraits)
 
So what happens next.
I can afford to take the hit, even if it goes to ZERO (an expensive lesson) but as I have made it clear to the RM thousands of member of the public are caught up in this, Bad things will happen to som eof them, and the RM is enabling it...
 
........................and now they know about it  (I linked this thread, in my last email to the RM today - it has now escalated past three RM account manager, when I eventually made it quite plain this is serious!
 
Take a look around, am I wrong?
 
And again really good to get this off my chest - I have been banging my head about his for week this for week
(and last week was most stressful week of my life - Family reasons, far more stressful than speculative coin buying Frenzies, that have happened before - look up 1980s coin crash - and how 'grading' fueled that one- this time social media has made it bigger and faster)
 
All of Course in my opinion, other opinions may differ.  What do you guys think?
 
 Goodnight - off to get two Big Macs - sadly - 'Interesting Times'  ahead
 
Barry
 
 

NO - I bought from a dealer - Absolutely a dealer - you would all KNOW them- (but the coin was secondary to them) then misrepresented as primary direct from royal Int (but only verbally)!
They told me the coin had come directly from the Royal Mint.... That was not true
They advertised them selves as a Trusted Partner of the Royal Mint..  That was also not True
They stated coins were supplied to them by the Royal Mint... That was also NOT  True
(they stated this on their website  and had done for sveral tears (I went wayback to check)
 
All those claims have gone after a conversation this morning
 
This all came about because the Royal Mint decided  to just sell Portrait Gothic Crowns only to the Original purchasers..
 
I had bought a plain edge one form a dealer  and had been guaranteed the second (on launch day)
I had just missed out on a 2 oz milled edge coin  on RM website at 9:00 am.
I  went to the dealer I TRUSTED -I  had bought 25k + bullion in the last 2 months from them, Saw they had the milled edge coin for sale, then my Account Manager at the dealer said, I could get you a plain edge, VIP customers only, not sold to public guaranteed Portarit as well. I assumed the price quoted was RRP (why would I not!) and thought the Mint has just passed any spare coins of this limited mintage not taken up by VIPs-  to Trusted Partners - to offer to customers.
 
I much later had found out here, that I had in fact paid multiple times RRP. (Not Ebay multiples, I might add)
How so from a RM Trusted partner at launch - Cartier would not allow that, nor Rolex?   A primary sale to a customer would be RRP - (special customer might get chosen, but it would be at RRP)
 
When I approached the RM when the Portrait was due to ask about all this, and I wanted it RRP as I was the original, non trade owner and said I bought this from a Trusted RM partner, how do I get my Portrait..
RM told me we do NOT allocate them to dealers, we will sell our coins to the original purchaser.. And that this delaer had never been supplied by them with proof OR bulion, and were certainly NOT a Trusted partner.
That conversation was a week ago.. There have been other since......
 
SO.......
 
 That is how it began - Maybe the owner of the business is a VIP customer, maybe a friend is , a family member is, or it was  passed around trade, until it landed  somewhere.
Then a member of the public that misses out on RM website, and thinks RM have authorized dealers, and has no reason to suspect price quoted is anything but RRP, allocated directly from RM and buys a coin.
 
And we will see what happens next.....
 
 
And -  according to the RM, there is no such thing as DEALER ALLOCATION of coins like these Gothic Crowns!
I was floored by that, so how on earth do they end up in dealers then? do you have no control who sells your product
The Royal Mint said to last week, when answering that, that it is 'complicated' how dealers got their stock of Gothic Crowns  stock in the UK - and no direct allocations
 
This is insane. (these are Luxury good - no control of who sells the to the public - at all) 
 
So anyone here, anywhere, thinking any dealer UK is an authorized dealer of the Royal Mint, then you are wrong -NONE are. (ie like Cartier authorized delaers) 
 
Hence the subject of the post.   And a positive  suggestion to the Royal Mint on a better business model.
 
Good to get that off my chest.
I will not be lied to and have good misrepresented to me, nor have the company misrepresent themselves to, when I spending thousand (or any amount)
 
So here we are.. What happens next... Tomorrow should be interesting - 
 

Probably best just to wait for the bubble to burst and buy later at a reasonable price, no ?
The RM have a model that is currently working for them. Classic designs, free advertising by forums, the media and groups, over-priced and popular. It won't last.
(Historically the RM would sell off unsold stock at a discount and the majority of proof coins would lose value the minute they left the Mint. Hardly a success story. Once the market becomes over-saturated and sales start to return to old levels is when they should re-evaluate their business model).  
It's only going to take a few duff designs for the current frenzy to tarnish (or milkspot) and we'll be back to the same old, same old.
 

Hands up any replying to me here, who is also a Royal Mint VIP Mint Marque 'customer'...  go on be honest..?
 
And to be fair a high proportion probably are collectors, have a huge coin collection, traded a few, that is normal. and NOT this issue. Not you guys (I have never sold a coin- yet) 
 
If only a few greedy people hadn't started flipping at 200- 300 - 400% so blatantly in public, - good grief 5 minute past midnight ebay
And dealer websites - at 9:00 am  launch day - high prices on secondary should take a few weeks to get to dealers on secondary market. and those get sold as secondary at dealers
But dealers had an 'allocation' of 2 oz gothic crowns- or 5oz or 10 oz gold - at double the retail price on the Royal website, launched just minutes before.. and were selling as brand 'new' product to the public, that is wrong!
it could have carried on for years... but big instant profits came along.....

Run by the government / quango, what does anyone expect.
No direct competition
Reporting to the treasury
Civil service gold plated pensions
I could go on….

because the really dumb people doing it have there name on the ebay profile, the Facebook group they ran, and the their account manager knows who they are - Rolex keep an eye on stuff like this, and where there product turn up after launch, as does Cartier , etc etc..This is luxury good not barrow boy market trading-  Good Grief.  And even if they were not that obvious, special VIP product only would be watched for in the market place, where it ends up, gets auction.. it is called protecting the brand ( a thousand year Heritage, the Royal Mint use in all their marketing, with the ultimate celebrity endorsement literally stamped on every product they make - Queen Elisabeth II
 
I don't think Queeny really needs a  public consumer scandal with the heritage of the UK 'Royal' and her face on  all the products, just about now?!!
this is NOT what is hapening....
 

Thoughts
 
 - now that there has been a recent sudden interest in Royal Mint products, products selling out. Feeding Frenzy, etc = should the VIP access be should be abolished-  is it in fact damaging the Royal Mint brand.
[Note my account Manager had said she could possibly get what I wanted, going forward, so not sour grapes, I could get coins, but is it fair to the public?)
 
That  a more standardize luxury Goods Business business model established - ie Authorized Retailers etc would be better for the Royal Mint brand?
Maybe at different levels of brand, price points, or sub brand - Engravers, Monarch (high end) Tudor Beasts Mid range) , etc other gold and silver sub brand ranges. etc
Allocations agreed with  authorized dealer network, international authorized dealer networks, transparency, TRUST,  now, all should have similar access, not how much money you have to get access, and the instant flipping speculating will stop, and the public and collectors will  want the product, not the profits.  (that alone should make the quality of the product improve)
 
What has puzzled me with Coin series like the Great engravers, why aren't high end Jewelers  having say the Great Engravers range, The Monarch range, say in the on higher weights 5oz..(or selected sizes)  in stock and maybe a very few other premium Royal Mint products
 
The Royal Mint would reach a wider luxury goods market.. there surely would be more demand?
 
The more old school coin dealers could focus on their specialties, historic, modern sovereign, maybe select some of the higher brands or not. or evolve as well. It could work for all. Nobody is cut out of the market, it expands and gets healthier.
 
Proofs - Change the capsule so it is vacuum sealed for life - to a (68 Proof and maybe above standard) and be like Rolls Royce in the old days and say - it is good enough for us, we don't need to tell you how much power.(pr grade, 68,69,70).
So if the USA collectors, etc want it graded - they have to break the Royal Mint Seal, and send it off to grading. and the Royal Mint, with theory thousand year history they keep remind us, look slight down on such 'vulgarity'
 
Maybe in time the Royal Mint ungraded product will be the collectible premium desirable coin, in all of it's presentation box, packaging, COA, and history..
 
[sorry, just hate slabbed coins] 
 
Thoughts?
 
ie Brand Management
 
-- Lots of thoughts in my head today - Former Product Marketing Manager and Former Product Manager - Cartier, Tiffany, Rolex are not like this!!! 

Not even worrying myself, the hype train is still full steam - I'm gonna wait this out for a few weeks yet.

I have never seen anything in any of the Coinage Acts stipulating that the Royal Mint could only produce or release coins dated the current year.
On the contrary, it seems to have been standard practice to continue production with the current years dies after each year end. It wold also be very inefficient if the main production section of the factory had to stop work on 31st December each year, discard or destroy all the current dies, reset all the machines with new dies for the new year, beofre restarting production. This would also cause a huge spike in the workload of the engineers and machine setters, who might then be under-utilised for the rest of the year.
Prior to decimalisation, to discourage hoarding, the production of pre-decimal coins had its dates frozen, to 1967 in the case of pennies, halfpennies, brass threepences, sixpences, florins, and halfcrowns; and 1966 in the case of English and Scottish shillings. Mint bags of these denominations often have labels date stamped 1968, 1969, and 1970; possibly even 1971.
New decimal coins were produced and stockpiled in advance, but dated 1971. This did not apply to denominations with equivalent values in both systems, so 5 and 10 pences were dated from 1968, and 50 pences from 1969.
Mintage figure tables often state that the mintage figures for each year do not guarantee that the coins listed were dated the same year as they were produced. I seem to recall that old Royal Mint reports carry the same caveats.
Most 1925 London Mint gold sovereigns were struck in 1949, 1950, or 1951.
It can be seen for the above, that there is nothing particularly unusual about striking coins with dates different from the actual production or issue dates.
In other countries, particularly smaller states and island nations, where the coinage requirements are relatively low, it it even more common for the same date to be used and re-used for many years.
While @GoldDiggerDave might think 2022 dated coins being produced and issued in 2024 surprising, it would not be a total shock.
After all, late last week I received a brand new Henry VII coin!

Better photos to follow.
 

Surely the issue is RM picked a coin which couldn’t be minted as a single coin as both sides are iconic. So they produced two coins and then instead of selling them all as a pair decided they would be released separately. It was then anticipated that the portrait would be a general sale as per the first but if that occurred there would be multiple buyers upset that they either had one or the other of a two coin series hence, wouldn’t be happy with the mint.
So they decided to offer continuity which then alienates all the buyers who had to purchase off the secondary market as they are now not going to be able to purchase a RRP and cost, pain and frustration of sorting it. 
I put this down to a lack of foresight and communication issue from RM; a single coin depicted over two coins needs to be sold in continuity or you are going to create a number of future issues but the expectation either changed or wasn’t set and now we have this current scenario. If in December the mint sold all of them as a two coin set, then yes people would still be fuming they missed out but they would understand what options they had. 

I had just started out then, so I post only to be corrected It was PCGS as well as NGC. I don't know if and to what extent the error 'proof' certificates from the Mint played a part. But I believe it was the first 'huge' SotD (and certainly still a - if not the - very noteworthy one) they both received for grading. It was and is prooflike, it's stunning (as I'm sure you know) - like many of the subsequent SotDs.
The very strange bit came when people questioned/tried to correct them, and then the Mint issued the 'please send back your error certificates for exchange - it's not a Proof'. They both still stuck to their guns for a while with their proof designation.
As I've said, someone recently said on here that another (subsequent) SotD was given a PF designation, but I've never seen one or heard of that before.

I had just started out then, so I post only to be corrected It was PCGS as well as NGC. I don't know if and to what extent the error 'proof' certificates from the Mint played a part. But I believe it was the first 'huge' SotD (and certainly still a - if not the - very noteworthy one) they both received for grading. It was and is prooflike, it's stunning (as I'm sure you know) - like many of the subsequent SotDs.
The very strange bit came when people questioned/tried to correct them, and then the Mint issued the 'please send back your error certificates for exchange - it's not a Proof'. They both still stuck to their guns for a while with their proof designation.
As I've said, someone recently said on here that another (subsequent) SotD was given a PF designation, but I've never seen one or heard of that before.

I can't quite recall the official 'excuse' but when you have the coin in hand, you might think it's a proof.
 

I can walk it to NGC London to consign myself, but I think you're right Roy. Always worth pondering on and reassessing your collection/pieces from time to time though!
A different subject really but I do have a few coins for grading. With all the uncertainty in the world right now though, I am keeping them where they are until steadier days, better safe than sorry atm imo.
It's such a stunning coin, and I do love my PCGS holder and all the story that goes with it - the whole bundle. I don't think it'd be the same in a new slab. 69 or 70 doesn't matter to me and it's never leaving my collection anyway
Some of us say 'buy the coin and not the holder' often. I've realised now that I don't simply enjoy my coins often enough. I am not grateful enough for what I have. I shall aim to both enjoy them and be appreciative more

Also, the two main grading companies (NGC and PCGS) wrongly graded the 2017 SotD as a PF and not an MS (the quality can be very similar, which is why I personally believe the Mint switched to Matte SotDs, to differentiate). The Mint actually sent out incorrect CoAs with the 2017s saying they were Proof, a big mistake!
Some people sent their graded coins back, to be reholdered as MS and not PF, and exchanged their CoAs with the Mint. Others like me have kept the 'error' CoAs and the coins graded as PF. So you may see a 2017 graded as PF, or even (I guess) people trying to sell as one without explaining the history.
I have not seen one myself but recently on here someone posted that another SotD had been wrongly graded as PF.
All SotDs should be classed as MS, even if many of us think they are almost as good as, or even as good as, proofs.