banyancb

I thought I had started a Topic for highlighting fake gold sovereigns, but seemingly not.
Here goes with a few more:

Obverse of a High Rim 1925 London Mint Sovereign

Reverse of a High Rim 1925 London Mint Sovereign

Niton Test Result for High Rim 1925 London Mint Sovereign.
First, the weight is too low for a minty looking sovereign, at 7.9366 grams.
The gold content is within normal range, as is the silver content.
Anyone who relied solely on an (expensive) Niton XRF tester would probably conclude this coin was genuine, but it would be  a rather stupid conclusion.
Using eyes and a brain, it is easy to see this coin looks too shiny, weakly struck, with some strange pock marks, and most of all, a slightly different appearance which is hard to pin down to any one single element. It is worth comparing this with a genuine 1925-L.
Next:

Obverse of a 1931 South Africa Mint Sovereign

Reverse of a 1931 South Africa Mint Sovereign

Niton Test Result for 1931 South Africa Mint Sovereign
Again, the weight is too low at 7.9008 grams.
The gold content is just within range, as is the silver content.
These two coins were probably produced at about the same place and time. I should have paid a little more attention, but the person we bought these from said that his father or uncle had bought them brand new about twenty years ago
The 1931 is even more weakly struck than the 1925, but shares some charaacteristics.
Its reverse rim looks too wide, and is flattened, at the lower left side.
 

The increase in interest rates causes USD to strengthen, meaning gold will drop… in theory.
 
In reality given the increase in M2 money supply and the current (and upcoming) inflation might mean that gold is currently undervalued and due a reprice sharply higher. 
I am talking about the USD and the Fed but the GBP / BoE are basically doing the same.
 
I’m betting on a reprice, and expect £2000 to be reached within the next 5 years, £2500 in 10 years. And I believe I’m being conservative. All this inflation is and will be hitting food, housing (barring a few local housing bubbles), oil and other commodities, gold can’t be the outlier.

The increase in interest rates causes USD to strengthen, meaning gold will drop… in theory.
 
In reality given the increase in M2 money supply and the current (and upcoming) inflation might mean that gold is currently undervalued and due a reprice sharply higher. 
I am talking about the USD and the Fed but the GBP / BoE are basically doing the same.
 
I’m betting on a reprice, and expect £2000 to be reached within the next 5 years, £2500 in 10 years. And I believe I’m being conservative. All this inflation is and will be hitting food, housing (barring a few local housing bubbles), oil and other commodities, gold can’t be the outlier.

The increase in interest rates causes USD to strengthen, meaning gold will drop… in theory.
 
In reality given the increase in M2 money supply and the current (and upcoming) inflation might mean that gold is currently undervalued and due a reprice sharply higher. 
I am talking about the USD and the Fed but the GBP / BoE are basically doing the same.
 
I’m betting on a reprice, and expect £2000 to be reached within the next 5 years, £2500 in 10 years. And I believe I’m being conservative. All this inflation is and will be hitting food, housing (barring a few local housing bubbles), oil and other commodities, gold can’t be the outlier.

The increase in interest rates causes USD to strengthen, meaning gold will drop… in theory.
 
In reality given the increase in M2 money supply and the current (and upcoming) inflation might mean that gold is currently undervalued and due a reprice sharply higher. 
I am talking about the USD and the Fed but the GBP / BoE are basically doing the same.
 
I’m betting on a reprice, and expect £2000 to be reached within the next 5 years, £2500 in 10 years. And I believe I’m being conservative. All this inflation is and will be hitting food, housing (barring a few local housing bubbles), oil and other commodities, gold can’t be the outlier.

I've no idea mate. I'm new to buying sovs. I'm going off the standard 22mm and 7.98 grams to check against my own. The low weights are sus in my opinion though. Can you give the seller a ring and see what he's got to say about it?

I've had shield reverse sovereigns that were in the 7.92g-7.93g weight range and they tend to be maximum of AF-F grades, often cleaned and certainly showing lots of wear. Usually 1840s-1860s dates.
The Bentley Collection of gold sovereigns had quite a few underweight specimens from those years too.
Remember up until WWI sovereigns were circulation coins and they did circulate (not to the extent that half sovereigns did of course - they were often very worn).
Bank notes started at £5 and upwards, thus most transactions from 10/- upwards to £4 10/- would almost certainly have involved gold coinage. Perhaps even transactions as low as 5/- would have seen gold used, with change returned.
By the 1870s crowns and half crowns had all but disappeared from circulations. Large purchases without gold coins would involve lots and lots of shillings and florins without gold.
There were several mint and government reports in the 1870s-1880s reporting the deplorable state of the coinage and how worn it was (both silver and gold). In part this is why pre-Victorian sovereigns were demonetised in the early 1890s. To help bring the coinage up to par.
Sovereigns of course had a legal tender weight but as attested to from surviving coins, hoard finds and official reports many were still circulating below their legal weight.
Don't underestimate the usage of gold coinage in the UK - an interesting report comes from the aftermath of the Titanic disaster in 1912 - The Mackay Bennett ship that recovered the deceased from the Atlantic and catalogued their effects, recorded any money recovered - stating whether it was banknotes, gold, silver or copper. The US money recovered was mostly paper with a smattering of gold, the British money was the opposite, some paper money but lots and lots of gold. One example, was a second class passenger (Number 17) who was recovered with £63 10/- in gold coins about his person.
So yes, don't expect Victorian shield sovereigns to be exact mint weight, it's only going to be the higher grade coins approaching mint state. That said, I think the Bentley Collection even had some near UNC coins that were lighter than they should have been.

The old sovs have a charm about them no doubt. 

It’s not, for me at least, holding an old sovereign or any old coin that makes it special. It’s the holding that bit of history in your hands and that link to the past that’s special and fascinating.
Who had it before?
Who held it before?
Who spent it before I held it?
All questions that we’ll never know the answer to.
That’s how I feel whenever I hold an old sovereign or any other old coin.
We’re mere custodians. We came with nothing, we leave with nothing.
Now, if only they could talk.

No reason to acid test any gold sovereign, it is not sensitive enough.
I doubt it could tell the difference between 22ct and 21ct but this would be immediately obvious by carefully measuring size and weight.

Good idea but a jeweller may be able to check if they are 22ct gold but I doubt most, not all, but most jewellers wouldn’t be able to tell you if it’s genuine. Some fakes/counterfeit sovereigns may still be 22ct but still be a fake. 1911 is also supposed to be one of the most faked sovereign years sadly.
You really ought to get them checked by a coin dealer or numistmast in person.
I hope yours turn out to be genuine for you.

Applying acid to any coin will create a glaringly obvious defect and if you are in doubt about authenticity and you can return for an exchange or refund, the seller will definitely not want to know with a big blemish that wasn't there before.
You don't test sovereigns or any 22ct gold that you want to keep using acids and 24ct will not react at all unless it is fresh aqua-regia.
Seek out the obvious tests - weight and dimensions first and if there is any doubt try a specific gravity test.
Failing that take it to someone who can test / verify with the proper kit.

@banyancb no matter when you start collecting coins you wish you bought years ago, it’s all part of the leaning curve. 
 
Even if you have over paid in year 1 by year 8-9 you are likely to look back and think it was cheap. 
 
invest in some sovereign and coin books, it will put you on the right path, the Spink guide shows prices which you might find helpful. 
 

The 1851 is around Fine/good fine  at a push.  Imo.
 
The reverse looks like it has a large scratch from the top left of the shield, overall the reverse has a fair bit of wear, rim damage at 12 o’clock, the obverse I have seen worse if you have picked this up for bullion price or even a little over bullion then it’s okay for the collection or date run.
 
 I would not be paying a premium for this coin as it’s not a rare coin.  It’s still nice to have a young head providing you have not over paid. 
Have a look at auctions to get a feel for the grade and price 
 
https://www.londoncoins.co.uk/?page=Pastresults&searchterm=1851+Sovereign&searchtype=1
 

We take all our coin photos in artificial light.
Acid test on gold sovereigns or any other coins is really bad, and something only done by jewellers and other ignorami.
(Unless you were going😎 to scrap them anyway).
 

I wouldn't put acid on any coin, exhaust all other methods first and if you are sure you've been sold a fake and you are in a dispute it would be my last resort.
If your happy with spot or less then it might not affect you as much but selling privately will be a bit more challenging and you will lose premiums.

Er.....no acid tests ever.

And here’s the 1911-S, which also looks legit (?)
 


 
Still not great photos but getting better right?! 

Sorry about the pics, I’m pretty jetlagged today, brain is not working properly.
I get that some of you can be very suspicious about new users, but I’m not here trying to fool anyone. I live between three countries and travel a lot for work.
I had a look at fakes and watched lots of videos before asking here. But I’m a total noob, and it’s not easy for me spot the fakes (as you can see from my posts above) hence the questions. English is not my native language, so I might not make much sense at times.
 
Honestly any piece of advice is good, I just want to learn.
 
I am pretty convinced now that the 1911-C is a fake, and will now carefully through all the coins I bought from this dealer (6) to check for fakes.
The 1918-I is the  another one that looks suspicious to me.

Well here's the thing, an acid test on a sovereign that's the correct weight/diameter/thickness will tell you nothing ( most fake older sovereigns are infact real gold) if you had a non gold fake sovereign, it should be glaringly obvious it's not a precious metal ( will be substantially bigger or thicker or weight will be off)
as sovereigns are 22ct then a higher concentration of acid would be needed but certainly not advisable. 

Just a few points.
Photography: Try to take your pics in natural daylight, to get correct colour balance. Yours, taken under artificial lighting have a 'silver cast' which often happens. and definitely makes them look fake!
Don't be afraid to take the coins out of their capsules to take your photographs - they are not proofs! 
Your very first photo of the 1911 C is probably the best. I am not sure whether if it's fake or not. You cannot simply cannot decide by looking at one photo.
Having looked through your well-established dealers' collection of 'Inglaterra-Libra' and the variety shown, my feeling is that its unlikely he has fobbed you off with a couple of fakes. Other TSF members can make their own judgements.
Aside from this I thought you made a good choice of the 1911 C & 1918 I for your collection.
Hope it all works out well for you.
PS. I like Lisbon (Lisboa)  Been there a few times & the UAE!

This should help:
https://filateliadochiado.pt/categoria/numismatica/ouro/libras-em-ouro/

Did you buy it “sight unseen” by any chance?
To me it looks to be an absolute rotter of a counterfeit.  

For comparison... although I am trying to watch the Grand Prix at the same time!