arphethean

Its only in the last year as the forum has grown and business members are charged higher fees  that it has become a big problem and unharmonious in my opinion.
Personally I only see it going one way if left unfettered, private individuals will just list elsewhere and stop looking in and the sales forum will simply become pages filled with dealers stock lists.

Interesting thread. 
 
As someone who's recently made the transition from collector/stacker to amateur trader to dealer, I am reading with interest and hearing what people are saying wrt the trade section, which is an important extension of the community, and can see that having it flooded with posts from a small number of members at the expense of other members is not conducive to the community spirit. 
I am always keen to hear feedback on my listings in the trade section, whether that be on the frequency, content, quality of offerings, pictures and price. I'll certainly be taking some advice from the comments here. I do feel it's excessive to list lots of items in individual listings so try to group items into listings to reduce the flooding. 
 
On the topic of the sections, I do totally agree that the current split of ungraded/graded is poor, and a more logical and even split to me would be:
Silver
Gold
Other metals (platinum, palladium, copper etc etc)
 
The ungraded section is way too busy. It is a jumble sale. But where ungraded is jumble, graded is tumble weed.
Split it more evenly as per the above and each section will strike a better balance of busyness. Posts won't be swamped out within an hour, and sections will get visited by buyer's according to what metal they're in the market for. 
Dealer sub forums I don't agree with, as they tend to be mostly ignored and under-utilised with a couple of notable exceptions

Interesting thread. 
 
As someone who's recently made the transition from collector/stacker to amateur trader to dealer, I am reading with interest and hearing what people are saying wrt the trade section, which is an important extension of the community, and can see that having it flooded with posts from a small number of members at the expense of other members is not conducive to the community spirit. 
I am always keen to hear feedback on my listings in the trade section, whether that be on the frequency, content, quality of offerings, pictures and price. I'll certainly be taking some advice from the comments here. I do feel it's excessive to list lots of items in individual listings so try to group items into listings to reduce the flooding. 
 
On the topic of the sections, I do totally agree that the current split of ungraded/graded is poor, and a more logical and even split to me would be:
Silver
Gold
Other metals (platinum, palladium, copper etc etc)
 
The ungraded section is way too busy. It is a jumble sale. But where ungraded is jumble, graded is tumble weed.
Split it more evenly as per the above and each section will strike a better balance of busyness. Posts won't be swamped out within an hour, and sections will get visited by buyer's according to what metal they're in the market for. 
Dealer sub forums I don't agree with, as they tend to be mostly ignored and under-utilised with a couple of notable exceptions

Interesting thread. 
 
As someone who's recently made the transition from collector/stacker to amateur trader to dealer, I am reading with interest and hearing what people are saying wrt the trade section, which is an important extension of the community, and can see that having it flooded with posts from a small number of members at the expense of other members is not conducive to the community spirit. 
I am always keen to hear feedback on my listings in the trade section, whether that be on the frequency, content, quality of offerings, pictures and price. I'll certainly be taking some advice from the comments here. I do feel it's excessive to list lots of items in individual listings so try to group items into listings to reduce the flooding. 
 
On the topic of the sections, I do totally agree that the current split of ungraded/graded is poor, and a more logical and even split to me would be:
Silver
Gold
Other metals (platinum, palladium, copper etc etc)
 
The ungraded section is way too busy. It is a jumble sale. But where ungraded is jumble, graded is tumble weed.
Split it more evenly as per the above and each section will strike a better balance of busyness. Posts won't be swamped out within an hour, and sections will get visited by buyer's according to what metal they're in the market for. 
Dealer sub forums I don't agree with, as they tend to be mostly ignored and under-utilised with a couple of notable exceptions

As someone has already mentioned, its should be limited to x amount of posts in x amount of time, a bump being allowed once a day as it currently is, in my opinion.
however, if I were a dealer having paid what they are asked to pay id want my money’s worth too and that sort of limit would not be acceptable.
The sales format just isn’t geared up to handle the loading a few dealer can easily put on it, never mind once the normal members are added in, it’s no wonder people get annoyed and push the bumping rules.
The forum needs to decide what it wants to be or do something significantly different like an eBay type environment for sales.
Edit: I also agree about splitting out the metals for what its worth. But I also remember when the highest paying members at the time were asked their opinion @richatthecroft and most were on a similar page to what you propose, but were basically told no and something quite different happened.

There's been almost 129,000 posts since 2014 in the 'ungraded' section Steve (see screenshot below,  but prior to March 2020 the graded/ ungraded coins were sold together between 2014 and early 2020.
Which bolsters my argument that its a pointless section.
@sovereignsteve or anyone else happy with the current jumble sale?  
Any opinion?  Or am I the only one who thinks the respective metals need separating out?
 
If we are all happy I'll stop my futile bleating- but its a bugbear of mine, and it must resonate with other Forum members?   
 

Its reasonably popular Steve-  5,200 posts since March 2020 however, its still pointless separating ungraded and graded coins- coins are coins.  
 
 
Perhaps not in terms of volume and throughput of Platinum however,  @ChrisSilver decided to organise the Forum into distinct sections- Silver, Gold & Platinum and the Platinum discussion section certainly lags behind the Gold and Silver.
The main discussion sections are separated out-  yet the sales section is a complete mess- akin to a jumble sale.  
I feel like I'm the only person that has drunk from the Well here- doesn't it make perfect sense to split sales into the respective metal?
 
 

I would agree with the graded section as there are never many coins in it.
Does platinum justify it's own section on action? I doubt it.
probably more a lack of coins within it to be fair

For me, it’s not a lack of exposure it’s why have a section that doesn’t make any sense- a coin is a coin whether or not it’s in a slab or not.
Splitting up the metals makes sense to everyone.
Anyway, it won’t happen- @ChrisSilver already did his consultation prior to creating the nonsensical ‘Graded’ section.
Why don’t we do something radical and simplify and make the sales section coherent by splitting into Silver, Gold & Platinum? 

Here something milling my mind with this thread, one to think about consider/discuss.   this may work and add value to the forum
Would personal ownership of a "single - for sale" thread be a better option to consider ?
Let me know explain further
So me, PAUL has my own "for sale" thread, and everyone else who wishes to trades has their own single thread, they own
Ive been here since year dot and bought and sold off and on.  So my for sale thread could be five plus years long
The very first post on page 1 would always show whatever item(s) you have have currently for sale.
So a "permanent dealer" platinum plus member could show/display x100s of items in their own personal thread
OR collector wishing to just part with a 1oz maple leaf
They both share an equal amount of visible forum retail space - if that makes sense
Both have their own separate for sale threads.
As and when things sell, new stock arrives, comments are added to the last page. 
As more trades are done and items sold.  the threads owner will get longer and longer number of page/replies.  Someone with 100s of sales over years and a thread of many pages in length and positive comments will naturally foster & create a visible communal trust through the multiple transaction and coupled with the existing feedback system 
The member uses the "EDIT" function to keep page one always update.
If they have nothing to sell.  Their for sale thread will naturally move to the back of the queue
Bumps can be made by adding new items, commenting on price drops, or using BUMP every 3 days on the last page as a new comment
As and when you get to know your preferred dealers/members of choice, i will know who is always very fair on price, who sells graded coins, i know to avoid members/dealer who specialise in pre-decimal/ancient coins and never sell bullion
With doing this i can just subscribe to my preferred members/dealers for alerts or update to their "for sale" thread 
If this ramble makes kind of sense and if anyone can picture this sort of thing working ?? im just dumping my brain droppings here so may be not 100% perfect.  Anyone think this would be a positive step forward ? or add value ? or be a better set up than current listings that seem to be causing pain points to a few here myself included 
@ChrisSilver  this was my other idea ^^^ i was planning to discuss with you on PM - any mileage or points to consider.  Might this may add value ?

I do also believe the graded section, kind of suffers from lack of eyes in fairness. 

This is my feeling entirely  @ChrisSilver  my promised PM to you was to be more or less what has @Shep has highlighted & explained very well  
How this can be done is the tricky part 

Too many sales is a “nice problem to have”.
Quite a few folk collect particular types of coins eg Sovereigns.  I currently flag all sales to be notified to me immediately and then use email rules to remove items that are not Sovs.  It’s not perfect as often people use titles like “Various Gold for Sale” a listing which might include a Sovereign.
An alert system by tag or category of coin would work really well.  It could be applied in each sub topic so that you could, for example get alerts for graded or non graded sovs.
Best
Dicker

This is something that has been discussed before. Without making this topic go off topic too much, and similar to how @27carrots has stated. TSF decided in the past not to split up the trade section further as it will make it harder to browse, twice the clicking to check both sections. I did and do however agree that some sort of tag/filter/attributes system with a filter would work very well, so it is easy to filter between gold/silver etc, or even coins/bars. The problem is that the core base of the system we are using uses the tag system for the prefixes, and there is no way to easily integrate an additional filter system at present. However it is something that I would like to introduce in the future if possible  

I don't agree with chopping up the sales sections at all.
Most items would never get looked at by casual/new buyers.
But having a keyword feature would work well.
The problem with the search feature is that people use different words to describe things quarter vs 1/4, etc or don't put the word silver or gold in their thread.
Give thread starters boxes they can tick so people can filter their search with one click.
Also if you ignore people's posts, their sales threads should be hidden as well.

Bump, Bump, Bump, Bump, Bump, Bump, Bump, Bump, Bump, Bump, Bump, Bump.  Either I'm listing coins or I got lucky 

You mean like when certain members post 15 separate for sale posts in the space of 10 mins? One after the other? Does seem excessive and essentially wipes out the posts of other members trying to sell at the same time….?

If it was possible to limit the number of items listed for to no more than 3 in (say) 4 hours that would avoid one member hogging the sale section. Same would apply to 'bumping'.
Just a thought.

Thanks for pointing out the issue with "unsolicited posts" in these situations. I didn't think any posts casting aspersions on the validity of sales items would be allowed.
I am still reluctant to do so as generally it is extremely difficult to spot fakes on the basis of a photo which are usually of insufficient quality for the task.
I generally find that I am correct on my first impression of a coin even if I can't really put my finger on why I suspect it's authenticity. I don't think it fair to draw attention to these.
The very few I have been certain are fake, I considered messaging the seller, but decided against. Perhaps I should have.
I have been reluctant to getting into the realm of "policing" the sales threads as I'm not sure where it would lead. i will reconsider my position though.
I am strongly of the opinion that potential buyers should base their purchase decisions on the quality of the seller and their own knowledge and tests. Sadly this isn't foolproof and many problems will not be discovered until the coin is in hand. I have personally bought a couple of fakes off forum sales threads. The sellers were top quality and reimbursed with out any issues. They weren't aware of the situation.
 

There was one fairly recently and if I'm not prepared to call it out in public, it's not fair to do so in private.
When it comes to sovereigns, it is usually quite difficult to spot good fakes. In fact I've bought a couple of fakes over the years that weren't obvious; it's a difficult area. I didn't have any problems getting refunded as the sellers were top class. Shows you what a minefield it is.

I think the sales thread generally works well due to its self policing nature, without overly restrictive rules or control from mods.
All it requires is a bit of common courtesy and recognition that it’s not a space solely for “dealers” to capitalise and use as their private source of daily income. 

No issue with people wanting to make money but if you have multiple similar items to list in a single day I.e. an amount of various gold coins, perhaps put them in a single listing and don’t stick the middle finger up by blasting other people’s items into the stratosphere and filling the front page with your items alone.
 

Yeah I'm certain you have bought safely 🤣
Doesn't hurt to be extra vigilant though,especially when starting out and ask as many questions as possible. 
 

I think you should have posted it, or at least posed it as a question.
If an opinion is controversial, it is probably because it stimulates thought, and invites discussion.
If all opinions were unanimous, things would get very boring, and they would not necessrily be correct or well-founded.
 

TSF has rules against excessive bumping and you can use the report feature so that myself and the Moderator are aware of any excessive bumping and can contact the OP to ask them to follow the forum rules on this. If you have any suggestions on how to further improve the TSF trade section please do private message me so we can consider your suggestion.

Trade listings quickly going to later pages is also a sign at how large the TSF trade section has grown and how many listings are posted in it. As outlined here in the look back at 2021, "7927 trade topics were started in 2021. That is over 21 new trade listings per day."

Please can you show actual examples. Because TSF and it’s moderators take action against any such obvious posts as they would be reported by multiple members.

In general the community itself enforces the trade section, and I have seen many times where members post to look out for other members. TSF will also not remove any 'unsolicited posts' in someone's trade topic if the posts are genuine posts discussing the authenticity of an item, this is to protect members. We believe that it is good for members and sellers to discuss any potential issues openly and publicly.  Note that TSF itself can not validate the authenticity of any item for sale.
There is always some risk of trading which is why members must do their own research first as outlined in the risk of trading topic: