British Monarchs Series - They Couldn’t, Could They?

[Agaupl]

16 minutes ago, paulmerton said:

The alternative game would be to wait for everyone else to return theirs to be melted and refunded, then bask in having a very rare set of coins  

If it were in chronological order I’d be happier. All but 2 I have. Henry viii and the most recent. I wouldn’t be returning for spot.  It’s just bad faith.  As has been said.. never invest in a Royal mint series again. 

5 minutes ago, Mickjar said:

Been after a shield back for awhile. 1872 with a mintage of 748,000 and first year of the Melbourne mint 😃 thanks to Orpster

Very nice mick, back when the mint was proper 🤣

Edited March 23 by Agaupl

[timsk]

Does anyone have access to The Royal Mint's original announcement about the series before the first coin was released? I joined the party late - long after any reference to it on their website was long gone. Depending on what it says, it may form a good faith contract between the Mint and prospective collectors.

Certainly, I would never have started collecting the series had I known the current situation was even a possibility, save for force majeure, nuclear armageddon or some such. As I've said before, but is worth repeating I think, the coins released so far don't form any kind of coherent set - they're a mishmash. The collection 'works' by having all the coins in one of the four houses and, ultimately, having completed all four houses. As things stand, there's no reason for the eight coins released so far to even hold the price paid for them - let alone increase in value over time.

I think that's a strong case and one which the Mint is morally and ethically bound to address, even if there isn't a legal requirement. The damage to their reputation and credibility has taken a major hit following the recent scandals surrounding the historic sets and (not so) silent auction - that I would think they would want to do the right thing and offer some form of compensation to everyone who bought into this series with the hope and expectation of collecting the complete set.

Edited March 24 by timsk
quantity error corrected

[Agaupl]

2 minutes ago, timsk said:

Does anyone have access to The Royal Mint's original announcement about the series before the first coin was released? I joined the party late - long after any reference to it on their website was long gone. Depending on what it says, it may form a good faith contract between the Mint and prospective collectors.

Certainly, I would never have started collecting the series had I known the current situation was even a possibility, save for force majeure, nuclear armageddon or some such. As I've said before, but is worth repeating I think, the coins released so far don't form any kind of coherent set - they're a mishmash. The collection 'works' by having all the coins in one of the four houses and, ultimately, having completed all four houses. As things stand, there's no reason for the six coins released so far to even hold the price paid for them - let alone increase in value over time.

I think that's a strong case and one which the Mint is morally and ethically bound to address, even if there isn't a legal requirement. The damage to their reputation and credibility has taken a major hit following the recent scandals surrounding the historic sets and (not so) silent auction - that I would think they would want to do the right thing and offer some form of compensation to everyone who bought into this series with the hope and expectation of collecting the complete set.

I 100% agree with you …. But it’s the royal mint we are talking about here. The worst of the worst for customer service  hiding behind a prestigious facade. 
customer service here means zero or generic responses.  Imagine trying to get an informative answer from the bowels of this bureaucracy. It will be something like sorry you feel that.  “we remain committed to providing our customers with premium products and services” 👍 

[BackyardBullion]

20 minutes ago, timsk said:

Does anyone have access to The Royal Mint's original announcement about the series before the first coin was released? I joined the party late - long after any reference to it on their website was long gone. Depending on what it says, it may form a good faith contract between the Mint and prospective collectors.

Certainly, I would never have started collecting the series had I known the current situation was even a possibility, save for force majeure, nuclear armageddon or some such. As I've said before, but is worth repeating I think, the coins released so far don't form any kind of coherent set - they're a mishmash. The collection 'works' by having all the coins in one of the four houses and, ultimately, having completed all four houses. As things stand, there's no reason for the six coins released so far to even hold the price paid for them - let alone increase in value over time.

I think that's a strong case and one which the Mint is morally and ethically bound to address, even if there isn't a legal requirement. The damage to their reputation and credibility has taken a major hit following the recent scandals surrounding the historic sets and (not so) silent auction - that I would think they would want to do the right thing and offer some form of compensation to everyone who bought into this series with the hope and expectation of collecting the complete set.

I don't have a screengrab of the original product release. 

BUT, I did copy and paste all the information on the first coin into my YouTube video description: 

 

The British Monarchs Collection is a revolutionary new coin series celebrating some of the most iconic kings and queens in British history.

Naturally, such a landmark collection deserves a worthy introduction and there is arguably no better place to start than with one of the most famous regal families in British history – the House of Tudor.

SPECIFICATION VALUE DENOMINATION £2

MAXIMUM COIN MINTAGE 1260

ALLOY 999 Fine Silver

WEIGHT 31.21 g

DIAMETER 38.61mm

REVERSE DESIGNER Alexander of Bruchsal

OBVERSE DESIGNER Jody Clark

QUALITY Proof

YEAR 2022

PURE METAL TYPE Silver

EDGE Milled

Beginning with the founder of the Tudor dynasty, the first coin in The British Monarchs Collection features a classic portrait of Henry VII as it would have appeared on the coinage of the time. As one of the most iconic kings in British history, this design provides a fascinating glimpse into the rarely seen coins of his reign, whilst also presenting a unique prospect for would-be collectors and history aficionados. As one of the oldest working mints in the world, we have produced coins for a plethora of regal dynasties throughout our 1,100-year history, including some of the most legendary monarchs to wear the crown.

The British Monarchs Collection uniquely celebrates these iconic kings and queens by providing a numismatic snapshot of their reign through coin designs of yesteryear. Utilising genuine historical samples coupled with state-of-the-art technology and numismatic processes, our master craftspeople have faithfully recreated these classic designs just as they would have appeared during each monarch’s respective reign.

This innovative, five-year series will feature 21 monarchs in total, featuring iconic kings and queens from four royal houses: Tudor, Stuart, Hanoverian and Windsor, formerly known as Saxe-Coburg-Gotha. Each year will see the launch of several new coins, released sequentially in January, March, June and September*.

Whilst the designs remain true to the originals, the coins in this new collection are finished to Proof standard, which provides a clearly defined finish that accentuates the details and enhances the overall aesthetic of each one. Available struck in 999.9 gold or 999 fine silver, the first release in the range celebrates Henry VII. Featuring a Tudor design, it is available in a variety of sizes, ranging from one ounce to five-ounce editions.

Here is also the original mint schedule too: 

 

[SilverJacks]

Oviously RM would cancel a series because it's no longer profitable. But is that the fault of the product, or the state of the market? Imo,The British Monarchs series is up there with the best RM have done in recent years, alongside the QB and GE series'.

The current economic problems are probably harming RMs profits, in which case, are any of their commemoratives profitable? Maybe they are cutting/suspending the British Monarchs series because it allows them to cut 4 series releases per year. Damage limitation so to speak. 

If the economy improves in future, the series might be revived. The original releases might be really sought after, in a different economic climate. Until then, it could be a rocky road ahead for modern commemoratives... Just a thought. 

[Agaupl]

13 minutes ago, SilverJacks said:

Oviously RM would cancel a series because it's no longer profitable. But is that the fault of the product, or the state of the market? Imo,The British Monarchs series is up there with the best RM have done in recent years, alongside the QB and GE series'.

The current economic problems are probably harming RMs profits, in which case, are any of their commemoratives profitable? Maybe they are cutting/suspending the British Monarchs series because it allows them to cut 4 series releases per year. Damage limitation so to speak. 

If the economy improves in future, the series might be revived. The original releases might be really sought after, in a different economic climate. Until then, it could be a rocky road ahead for modern commemoratives... Just a thought. 

The best imho. But a stegosaurus/ Harry Potter/ Star Wars is clearly more profitable. The difference with the monarchs was it was purely proof.  Hence larger margin despite small mintage. 

Edited March 23 by Agaupl

[SilverJacks]

10 minutes ago, Agaupl said:

The best imho.

What's most disappointing with the British Monarchs is that, after some of the duller designs in the series, they had some really intriguing ones to come.

11 minutes ago, Agaupl said:

But a stegosaurus/ Harry Potter/ Star Wars is clearly more profitable.

Maybe 🤷‍♂️. Wouldn't it be really interesting to see the figures.

[Agaupl]

2 minutes ago, SilverJacks said:

What's most disappointing with the British Monarchs is that, after some of the duller designs in the series, they had some really intriguing ones to come.

Maybe 🤷‍♂️. Wouldn't it be really interesting to see the figures.

Yes they weren’t all stunners. The early George’s were dull for me. But Edward VII was a stunner. Henry VII was. The expectation to come was in Victoria, George V… esp George VI and of course Elizabeth II. 

[Agaupl]

1 minute ago, Agaupl said:

Yes they weren’t all stunners. The early George’s were dull for me. But Edward VII was a stunner. Henry VII was. The expectation to come was in Victoria, George V… esp George VI and of course Elizabeth II. 

A pure conspiracy theory would be why would they be delaying a monarch based release until 25/26? 

[SilverJacks]

Just now, Agaupl said:

Yes they weren’t all stunners. The early George’s were dull for me. But Edward VII was a stunner. Henry VII was. The expectation to come was in Victoria, George V… esp George VI and of course Elizabeth II. 

Absolutely. I liked the ugly duckling of Henry VIII also, and the Charles I equestrian design. The very next scheduled release was also interesting. A teenage Edward VI.

I have to be honest, i'm not a big royalist, or even a fan of monarchs, but the history, and reviving old designs was the draw for me. But that is another reason why it was such a good series, it had different reasons to appeal to people.

[timsk]

Many thanks BYB for doing the digging.

"This innovative, five-year series will feature 21 monarchs in total, featuring iconic kings and queens from four royal houses: Tudor, Stuart, Hanoverian and Windsor, formerly known as Saxe-Coburg-Gotha. Each year will see the launch of several new coins, released sequentially in January, March, June and September*.

*Please note: All the information provided regarding dates and launch order of the monarchs are all subject to change across the five year series."

These are the two key sentences which form a clear statement of intent and makes clear that while the Mint will not be held to specific dates or releasing coins in the order listed, they are committed to producing 21 coins over a five year period. No caveat that they may cancel ('pause') the series at any time without even having the courtesy to inform their customers of their decision. Collectors are given every reason to believe that this "innovative", "revolutionary" and "landmark" series "celebrating some of the most iconic kings and queens in British history" will form the bedrock of all commemorative coin collections produced by the Mint for a long time to come.

The Mint has a clear case to answer for grossly misleading their customers and encouraging them to spend large sums of money without following through on their end of the bargain by producing the coins they said they would.

Edited March 23 by timsk

[BackyardBullion]

6 minutes ago, timsk said:

Many thanks BYB for doing the digging.

"This innovative, five-year series will feature 21 monarchs in total, featuring iconic kings and queens from four royal houses: Tudor, Stuart, Hanoverian and Windsor, formerly known as Saxe-Coburg-Gotha. Each year will see the launch of several new coins, released sequentially in January, March, June and September*.

*Please note: All the information provided regarding dates and launch order of the monarchs are all subject to change across the five year series."

These are the two key sentences which form a clear statement of intent and makes clear that while the Mint will not be held to specific dates or releasing  coins in the order listed, they are committed to producing 21 coins over a five year period. No caveat that they may cancel ('pause') the series at any time without even having the courtesy to inform their customers of their decision. Collectors are given every reason to believe that this "revolutionary" and "landmark" series "celebrating some of the most iconic kings and queens in British history" will form the bedrock of all commemorative coin collections produced by the Mint for a long time to come.

The Mint has a clear case to answer for grossly misleading their customers and encouraging them to spend large sums of money without following through on their end of the bargain by producing the coins they said they would.

You're not wrong, but that doesn't mean the mint will care enough to refund customers.

Another question is that a few of these in recent auction results are actually achieving above issue price. 

Some, definitely not making money and go under issue price...Others are making a little money assuming you sell with a sellers fee offer and don't get scammed!

To clarify, these screenshots are of sold listings on ebay, not just buy it now's unsold.

[timsk]

1 minute ago, BackyardBullion said:

You're not wrong, but that doesn't mean the mint will care enough to refund customers. . .

Hi BYB,

There are numerous other options The Royal Mint could explore to pacify disgruntled customers without offering a full refund. Needless to say, if they're willing to provide a full refund, I'll bite their arm off at the ankle, but I won't hold my breath! Instead, they could offer a package of measures that will minimise the cost to them but provide real value for customers and go a long way towards redressing the damage done. For example, they could offer vouchers to offset against future purchases, to include free delivery and the option to buy bullion at spot. I'd be open to an offer along those lines.

[blackadder]

9 hours ago, Agaupl said:

TBH why I’m so annoyed is because I actually loved this series for all its faults. I’d given up on ever selling at a profit, I just wanted to complete this ambitious series that had promised some stunning coins (many still to come). 
 

I agree with @paulmerton that clarity is needed. Given the Royal mint however I think a request to refund and return will be brushed off unless there is substantial backing. Like most I’ve been collecting the series in 2oz silver but I have a few 1oz and a single 1oz gold (Henry Vii, back when I was really excited for the series ). The ‘delay’ of this series makes all these coins basically worth bullion. I know they will use the ‘delay’ not cancellation to fob us off. 

I always thought this one was better looking then the beasts set.

[NGMD]

I think I’m going to see how this plays out. Not good for the coins bought on the secondary market but I’d take a RM credit for the balance or I’m going to machine one with an inscription and post a picture to RM and social media.

[James32]

2 minutes ago, NGMD said:

I think I’m going to see how this plays out. Not good for the coins bought on the secondary market but I’d take a RM credit for the balance or I’m going to machine one with an inscription and post a picture to RM and social media.

What would the inscription say? Asking for a friend in Wales...

[Whitebulldog]

I have bought 5 from the Royal Mint and 3 on the secondary market because I was late to the series (actually Edward VII sold out very quickly, I started buying with George I). If you look on the RM's website there is nothing about the series being paused or discontinued. So people could be buying right now under the impression that the series is continuing.

I get that they have the right to act commercially, but essentially they are telling no one what they're doing, no apology, nothing. The first few of these - certainly in the silver - sold out rapidly and it doesn't make sense to say that the better designs would not sell out similarly. The problem is the George II and Charles II were rather boring - the latter was like they were trying to avoid anything that competed with the Great Engravers Simon.

If they put Edward I as a tiny child, Philip and Mary, George V with a crown like used in Australia - they would be great designs that would raise enthusiasm.

At very least, telling us nothing and continuing to sell the series without explanation is like their raising a big middle finger at all of us

[timsk]

18 hours ago, BackyardBullion said:

.. . Another question is that a few of these in recent auction results are actually achieving above issue price. . .

Don't I know it! 😆

Because I joined the party late, I missed the first two releases and had to play catch up by buying them on the secondary market. I purchased James I and Henry VII on eBay, both the 2 oz versions, paying £225.00 for the former and - get this - £295.00 for the latter! At the time, they were the best prices and, FOMO being what it is, I figured the series would gain traction and get more popular with every release - so I'd best get in while I still could. Surprise, surprise (not!), the Henry VII coin is currently on offer at £200.00.

Needless to say, none of this is the fault of The Royal Mint and I only have myself to blame for what - with the benefit of hindsight - was a poor decision. But, the point remains that I would have thought twice about committing to the series so wholeheartedly had I had any inclination of what lay ahead. It just adds to my frustration about the cavalier way the Mint is behaving with their total lack of transparency and complete disregard for their customers.

[westminstrel]

22 hours ago, paulmerton said:

Some clarity would certainly be welcome.

I suspect the easiest way forward, without waiting for them to commit to a concrete answer, would be to ask them to arrange for all previous purchases in this range to be returned and refunded if they cannot confirm that the remaining coins will still be made.

Now this would separate the collectors from the flippers! 😜

Kidding! The sad part is, some of us who missed out on the earlier coins because they sold out on release day, paid way higher for them on the secondary market. We then continued the series by buying directly from the RM as subsequent coins became less popular and were available beyond the release day.

It genuinely sucks, because the best Monarchs (imo) were yet to come.

HERE’S A THOUGHT:

Maybe we can take this opportunity to collectively appeal to the RM to both, resume the series, and include Edward VIII. 😎

[westminstrel]

Separately, I can partly understand them doing pop culture ranges to appeal to newer collectors (Harry Potter, Star Wars etc.) but whoever asked for Myths and Legends in lieu of  British Monarchs! 

[blackadder]

As others have stated you should beable to return the coins for refunds,as they were sold as a set that would continue overtime etc.

which they won't ofc just will end up losing more customers.

starting to think they don't want the likes of us as customers,They are going down the route of coin companies you see in the back of the paper.

 

 

[Cloud9]

A Royal Proclamation detailing designs and denominations for coins featuring Edward VI, James II and George III was submitted to the Privy Council back in October and was approved by the King. It was published in The Gazzete. 

https://m.thegazette.co.uk/notice/4456073

Aren't the Royal Mint supposed to honour these proclamations, or can they change their mind?

Edited April 4 by Cloud9

[westminstrel]

21 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

A Royal Proclamation detailing designs and denominations for coins featuring Edward VI, James II and George III was submitted to the Privy Council back in October and was approved by the King. It was published The Gazzete. 

https://m.thegazette.co.uk/notice/4456073

Aren't the Royal Mint supposed to honour these proclamations, or can they change their mind?

They can certainly change their mind.

This might be an oversimplification… but I think in order to release any coin, there must be a proclamation in the Gazette; but just because a Proclamation exists, doesn’t mean a coin has to be released.

Most recently, the 5oz Petition Crown was scrapped even though it was part of a Proclamation.

[Agaupl]

It’s definitely not a bad sign. .. so there is always that. Edward should be a nice one too 

[BackyardBullion]

The thing that annoys me is that despite having direct contact with the mint Press office they are not going to put any formal communication out via their newsletter or on the product listings to say that the series is paused.

All they will tell me is that it is under review and when a decision is made they will communicate it.