Purchase limit of gold for private individuals?

[JoeBlack]

Hi,

Is there a purchase limit of gold or PM a private individual can purchase in a 12 month period? I am a new member here and just starting out in PMs and was looking into converting some of my savings in to sovereigns. The reason I ask is that I was going to buy some coin from Chards and during checkout it asks if you wish to sign up, when you click this option it takes you to what seems like a club and as I would consider myself a hobbyist at this time it states I would only be able to purchase 10K in 12 months.

Also what is the best way to purchase PMs as I purchased a couple of sovereigns from Royal Mint on my credit card and was charged a £30 cash transaction fee which I was not aware of at the time?

Apologies if this seems like a daft question.

Edited January 4, 2023 by JoeBlack

[modofantasma]

8 minutes ago, JoeBlack said:

Also what is the best way to purchase PMs as I purchased a couple of sovereigns from Royal mail on my credit card and was charged a £30 cash transaction fee which I was not aware of at the time?

Did you buy them from the Royal mail or Royal Mint? 👀 

Check your card issuers T&C's what they deem as a purchase Vs what they treat as a cash advance.

There isn't a purchase limit but some dealers will ask for ID docs after a certain amount spent... Requirements to do with AML and KYC requirements

[JoeBlack]

Thanks for your reply.

Royal Mint sorry was a typo. I did check after the fact of the charges, it was Tesco Credit Card but also My Barclay Card seems to have the same charges. Do you know which credit cards do not charge for a Bullion payment as a cash withdrawal? Or does it depend on the retailer on how they process the payment?

So ordering over a certain level of PMs is it just a requirement for the retailer to collect and keep this extra identity details or is it all passed on to the AML, KYC and all kept in a big database for the inland revenue to check up on? I will have to read up on what the AML, KYC is.

[LawrenceChard]

1 hour ago, JoeBlack said:

Hi,

Is there a purchase limit of gold or PM a private individual can purchase in a 12 month period? I am a new member here and just starting out in PMs and was looking into converting some of my savings in to sovereigns. The reason I ask is that I was going to buy some coin from Chards and during checkout it asks if you wish to sign up, when you click this option it takes you to what seems like a club and as I would consider myself a hobbyist at this time it states I would only be able to purchase 10K in 12 months.

Also what is the best way to purchase PMs as I purchased a couple of sovereigns from Royal Mint on my credit card and was charged a £30 cash transaction fee which I was not aware of at the time?

Apologies if this seems like a daft question.

There is no limit to the amount of gold you can buy, in any year / month / day / lifetime, apart from how much money you have.

There is no cost to sign up to our e-mail newsletters.

We, as all VAT registered dealers have to ensure we comply with various regulations, including anti-money laundering.

Any of our Customer Service Team can help you with any enquiries, by phone or e-mail info@chards.co.uk

I will tag @ChardsCoinandBullionDealer in to this.

😎

[SheepStacker]

1 hour ago, LawrenceChard said:

We, as all VAT registered dealers have to ensure we comply with various regulations, including anti-money laundering.

This is the key point.

I'm sure @LawrenceChardwill correct me if I'm wrong, but once you go over £8,000 in purchases in any 12 month period, the store is obliged under law (AML) to get your ID.

[JoeBlack]

15 minutes ago, SheepStacker said:

This is the key point.

I'm sure @LawrenceChardwill correct me if I'm wrong, but once you go over £8,000 in purchases in any 12 month period, the store is obliged under law (AML) to get your ID.

I have had a little read of the AML regs and my thinking is if I am paying direct from my bank account, credit card there shouldn't be a problem on the amount of purchases but if I purchased say £10,000 with cash I would be highlighted and looked into? Obviously all transactions will be audited against the individual or there would be no point collection the information in the first place.

Looking at it this way, say I had been stacking for 20 years and then cashed in at retirement £100K value of gold I would likely be flagged and investigated and then have to prove my whole purchase history of the asset. So full records would need to be kept for the 20years?

[SheepStacker]

7 minutes ago, JoeBlack said:

I have had a little read of the AML regs and my thinking is if I am paying direct from my bank account, credit card there shouldn't be a problem on the amount of purchases but if I purchased say £10,000 with cash I would be highlighted and looked into? Obviously all transactions will be audited against the individual or there would be no point collection the information in the first place.

Looking at it this way, say I had been stacking for 20 years and then cashed in at retirement £100K value of gold I would likely be flagged and investigated and then have to prove my whole purchase history of the asset. So full records would need to be kept for the 20years?

You're going beyond my serf knowledge of AML regs. You might want to speak to a financial advisor.

[LawrenceChard]

51 minutes ago, SheepStacker said:

This is the key point.

I'm sure @LawrenceChardwill correct me if I'm wrong, but once you go over £8,000 in purchases in any 12 month period, the store is obliged under law (AML) to get your ID.

I don't even try to remember the exact figures these days, but a Catch-22 type condition can catch people out. How do you know if someone's purchases hit any given threshold unless you log all their transactions including their very first one, and to be able to keep track, you need their ID.

😎

[ZRPMs]

I buy from several sources through out the year. One of the local dealers I purchase from told me that Once I reach £10,000 in any 12 month period they are obliged to inform HMRC. (I suppose as we are asked for our name and address even if we are buying a bulb from screwfix for pennies its a way to track everything.) I know they use Quickbooks for their accounting and this logs individual customers. Their system must automatically generate a running total. I have had to give a photo ID once and proof of address to make a purchase.

As for your own records I thought 7 years was all that was required. However I have heard of them trying to go further back. 

[JoeBlack]

28 minutes ago, ZRPMs said:

I buy from several sources through out the year. One of the local dealers I purchase from told me that Once I reach £10,000 in any 12 month period they are obliged to inform HMRC. (I suppose as we are asked for our name and address even if we are buying a bulb from screwfix for pennies its a way to track everything.) I know they use Quickbooks for their accounting and this logs individual customers. Their system must automatically generate a running total. I have had to give a photo ID once and proof of address to make a purchase.

As for your own records I thought 7 years was all that was required. However I have heard of them trying to go further back. 

Thanks, That makes it a bit clearer

[modofantasma]

5 hours ago, JoeBlack said:

Royal Mint sorry was a typo. I did check after the fact of the charges, it was Tesco Credit Card but also My Barclay Card seems to have the same charges. Do you know which credit cards do not charge for a Bullion payment as a cash withdrawal? Or does it depend on the retailer on how they process the payment?

Haven't had to pay cash advance fees or any charges buying from Atkinson's or Bullion By Post with MasterCard. @Darr3nG I think it was had an unexpected fee and mentioned it in a prior thread 

[Bratnia]

When the state knows where all your wealth is, its no longer yours, but a loan, potentially partially or fully confiscated (taxed) by the state at any time. I get the concept of anti laundering, but I suspect launders are highly proficient in what they do and have various means to do so (such as bitcoin). As such much of recording would seemingly be for the states benefit. Record/note to/where gold was sold, and potentially legislate to confiscate that gold due to poor government management/spending.

I also dislike the idea of my name/address along with records of say a collective/total large amount of gold purchase against that name/address being stored by the state and dealer(s). Computer systems, even government hosted data, gets lost/stolen, but equally a record is required as a means to prove valid purchases, demonstrate that its not the proceeds of illegal activities or otherwise risk having it confiscated as assumed proceeds of illegal activities.

You can open even the most secure safe with a pencil, held directed at a loved ones eye and ... you're going to open the safe for assailants. Interception/data security breach could lead to a gang coming around with pencils to enquire where your stack is. One could rent, establish id from that address, bulk purchase gold with that id, and then terminate the rental address. However I suspect the state would cross reference your national insurance/whatever id with the gold purchase and also have your name/address listed with that. Only the other day I received a HMRC official brown paper envelope, that had been opened and cello-taped closed again, the letter inside includes much personal data, NI, address, DoB, taxation ...etc. and I've no idea who/when that letter was intercepted/opened. HMRC refer to the Post Office, PO ... will do a investigation that I suspect wont lead anywhere. HMRC obviously don't care about potential identity theft, and aid such with big brown HMRC lettering on the outside of letters as a big pointer that the content may likely include valuable, to identity thieves, data.

Any tips as to what others do with such security/validity in mind? Basically a desire to fulfil proof of legal purchase/ownership - demonstrably not the proceeds of illicit activities, but where if data breaches occurred there isn't a direct link to your location/family. Can't see a pathway for that myself, which induces the temptation to 'go dark' for ones own best interests. Rule one of owning gold ... "you don't own any gold", and where trades are under the counter (off radar).

[Silverlocks]

9 hours ago, JoeBlack said:

Hi,

Is there a purchase limit of gold or PM a private individual can purchase in a 12 month period? I am a new member here and just starting out in PMs and was looking into converting some of my savings in to sovereigns. The reason I ask is that I was going to buy some coin from Chards and during checkout it asks if you wish to sign up, when you click this option it takes you to what seems like a club and as I would consider myself a hobbyist at this time it states I would only be able to purchase 10K in 12 months.

Also what is the best way to purchase PMs as I purchased a couple of sovereigns from Royal Mint on my credit card and was charged a £30 cash transaction fee which I was not aware of at the time?

Apologies if this seems like a daft question.

Not per se, but if you buy £10,000 or more from a single vendor within a 12 month period they are obliged to file a return for it.

[Bigmarc]

Thought it was not just PM's, it's the same if you buy anything over the given amount (cars for example). It's probably best not to belly flop in when it's this close to a all time high. Just buy small amounts and learn from members here.

[ZRPMs]

11 minutes ago, Bigmarc said:

Thought it was not just PM's, it's the same if you buy anything over the given amount (cars for example). It's probably best not to belly flop in when it's this close to a all time high. Just buy small amounts and learn from members here.

Sadly and increasingly that's correct. If you need more than £2500 cash from your bank. You have to order it. Not sure if it actually went ahead but In Australia they were trying to make it illegal to spend more than £10,000 Australian dollars. If there are any Australian members perhaps they could clarify.

Right, I can feel myself starting to go off on one, and its slightly off topic. but final words are. Always use cash in person to stop the march towards a cashless society. and buy small amount, regular, often and from many different sources.   

[spookyandroid]

The walls are closing in around us, getting us used to answering to our overlords and getting permission from the banking cartel, ensuring they don't miss out on their cut of your hard earned.

Exit the matrix.

[MonkeysUncle]

In simple terms, based on my understanding, in theory HMRC should be made aware of Joe Soap spending over a certain amount within a 12 month period. I'm pretty sure that amount is £10,000.

I sold a property in the recent past and sank a figure a good bit North of £10,000 into gold, in multiple purchases in the single figure thousands with the same dealer. A dealer who I have a long standing relationship with. Not heard a squeak or received a strange probe from Hector the Tax Inspector. 

So long as you're not knocking out dope and laundering your ill gotten gains there is nothing to worry about.

Any business man these days tends to be wary of a man trousering a large envelope of cash. The days of rocking up at car auctions, spending 20, 30, 40 thousand and a large brown envelope being accepted are long gone! Use bank transfer I would suggest then you will have a nice clean traceable record if the tax man takes interest and money grabbing bankers won't steal their "share".

And welcome to the soon to follow addiction of shiny stuff!

[MonkeysUncle]

On 04/01/2023 at 18:19, ZRPMs said:

As for your own records I thought 7 years was all that was required. However I have heard of them trying to go further back. 

Private individuals need to keep records going back 7 years, that's correct. 

I think businesses have to keep for longer but I can't remember how long. My gaffer has plastic boxes full of paperwork going back to the 90's... it's his view that if HMRC want to camp out in our loft looking at musty old papers whilst risking life and limb from Boris the spider then let 'em!

[Bigmarc]

I've not been to a casino in a while, can you still walk in and change cash into chips at the tables? Do they take your details when you cash out? 

[ZRPMs]

9 minutes ago, MonkeysUncle said:

Private individuals need to keep records going back 7 years, that's correct. 

I think businesses have to keep for longer but I can't remember how long. My gaffer has plastic boxes full of paperwork going back to the 90's... it's his view that if HMRC want to camp out in our loft looking at musty old papers whilst risking life and limb from Boris the spider then let 'em!

Businesses have to keep tax records for a minimum of 5 years. Tax man can go back as far as 7 unless they detect fraud or criminal activity. Like your gaffer. I can go as far as the first pay packets from the Saturday job I had when I was 16. I'm meticulous in my record keeping (not my words but my accountant's). What I object to is the assumption of wrong doing and the obsessive requirement to track what ever anyone wishes to purchase. It feels like a freedom that's slowly being eroded. In this day and age where every one states data protection act for not being able to do something its seem strange that more and more of it is being captured. 

How many official files and documents have been lost, stolen, misplaced or left at a park bench, underground train seat. You get my drift. It's the slow creep. My grandparents would have just walked out of any shop if they had asked for their address when purchasing anything. Has anyone bought a kettle from Argos with cash lately. It wasn't quite the Spanish inquisition but they was also interested in my pronouns.

[Bigmarc]

The only thing that gets on my tits is the term anti money laundering. Crooks launder money so they can put it in the bank. Should be called anti tax evasion but wouldn't get the masses approval. It's so obvious what business do it. I live in a village with one Tesco's express, 4 pubs, 4 barbers, 6 salons a chip shop and two restaurants. Half of those business are cash only. You only have to drive up the road, car washes on every corner, burger vans in a layby probably putting 1000 cups of tea through their books a day. Near my work there are 3 fried chicken shops in a row and nobody ever in them. They have been there for years but they are paying taxes so doesn't matter. 

[bluffer]

On 04/01/2023 at 14:25, JoeBlack said:

Thanks for your reply.

Royal Mint sorry was a typo. I did check after the fact of the charges, it was Tesco Credit Card but also My Barclay Card seems to have the same charges. Do you know which credit cards do not charge for a Bullion payment as a cash withdrawal? Or does it depend on the retailer on how they process the payment?

So ordering over a certain level of PMs is it just a requirement for the retailer to collect and keep this extra identity details or is it all passed on to the AML, KYC and all kept in a big database for the inland revenue to check up on? I will have to read up on what the AML, KYC is.

just because the Ts and Cs are the the same from different providers it doesnt mean they will show up on your statement the same from the same retailer or different ones.

 

ie tesco treat RM annual bunc and proof sets and silver proof coins as normal purchases.  but they treat silver 1oz coins and sovereigns and brits as bullion therefore you are buying cash and fees apply.   the fact that you are buying cash on the annual sets "isnt the same" apparently.  I have then bought 1ozs and sovereigns from Blayer and BPP etc with no extra fees.  The reason - they are classed as a stamp and collectable retailers, ( not coin or bullion dealers presumably )

Chards are debit cards only, possibly partly for the cc fees but also to avoid this confusion.

As they said on Hill St Blues - be careful out there!

[Stuntman]

1 hour ago, Bigmarc said:

I've not been to a casino in a while, can you still walk in and change cash into chips at the tables? Do they take your details when you cash out? 

Effectively, yes.  In the UK you need to register with the casino (or group of casinos if it's a chain) before they allow you to enter the premises.  This involves giving them your name, address and some proof of identity.  Once you are in - yes, you change cash into chips at the tables and then take the chips to the pay counter and turn them back into cash at the end of your session.

I think the only partial way round this is if you can play in the casino as the guest of a registered member.

I'm partial to a bit of blackjack and I can honestly say that I am 'ahead' over my lifetime in UK and US casinos.  We are not talking frequent visits or large amounts though, sadly!

[Bigmarc]

43 minutes ago, Stuntman said:

Effectively, yes.  In the UK you need to register with the casino (or group of casinos if it's a chain) before they allow you to enter the premises.  This involves giving them your name, address and some proof of identity.  Once you are in - yes, you change cash into chips at the tables and then take the chips to the pay counter and turn them back into cash at the end of your session.

I think the only partial way round this is if you can play in the casino as the guest of a registered member.

I'm partial to a bit of blackjack and I can honestly say that I am 'ahead' over my lifetime in UK and US casinos.  We are not talking frequent visits or large amounts though, sadly!

So how do they know how much you came in with? If you cash out with 10 grand but took 10 grand in with you, would they report you when you have effectively made nothing? 

[MonkeysUncle]

2 hours ago, ZRPMs said:

Has anyone bought a kettle from Argos with cash lately. It wasn't quite the Spanish inquisition but they was also interested in my pronouns.

Last time I bought a kettle in Argos they tried to flog me an extended warranty that cost more than the bloomin' kettle. Stuff like that it's Tesco's and fun with the "unexpected item in the bagging area" machine. Or that rate breed MonkeyusShopiusAssistantius. Tescos monkeys don't ask ze questions, zey 'ave not had ze Third Reich training!

I am that t#&t who lies to intrusive unnecessary questions. So depending on my mood I'll give a very Muslim or very obvious African tribal name - I'm a ghostly white obvious English lardy ass - so this normally confuses the knuckle draggers. I have also claimed to be a Mr Caine and suggested shop doors might be susceptible to damage before now...