Pressure to Grade

[Bigmarc]

6 hours ago, CollectorNo1 said:

I see I'm up against a group of members that have been friends on this forum for some time  having each others backs....abit like school..the cool kids and the needs.. not saying I'm a need but I do recognise the bullies who love to stick together to put down the weaker kids..thing is I'm not a weaker kid..if you want to gang up up on me lol...go for it.....I'm entitled to my opinions..I'm not going to divulge my sources....I'm just saying..so go ahead....gang up...abuse me..say what you want..

Again I'm only stating my opinions and if that doesn't conform with YOUR VIEWS.....keep slagging me off....its fun hearing your views.....

Hit the nail on the head there. 

[dicker]

If in 20 years or so, counterfeits are so good that they are virtually undetectable then grading may well become more commonplace for bullion coins in the secondary market.

I have seen a number of coins at auction and on eBay where I don’t understand the motivation for having them graded.  In particular, very common, very bullion grade Sovereigns.  Perhaps this grading was done where people were not confident of their coins being genuine, or they did not know that their coins are common and not in great condition.  Perhaps they just like slabs!

What was interesting at the tail end last year was PCGS being bought by Collectors Universe - which will no doubt grow the business (ie more grading).  

It was originally setup by a number of coin dealers if my memory serves me correctly, but I am sure this will mean more grading, grading products etc.

Best

Dicker

[GoldStatue]

7 hours ago, mr1030 said:

Very nice coin.  My LCS has one in the shop that I have been seriously considering picking up.  For anyone who has not seen one in person, they are ridiculously tiny.

My personal opinion on the raw vs slab debate, I prefer raw coins.  I love handling raw coins (with appropriate care), and putting coins in albums.  For display purposes, I find it much more satisfying to see coins in albums in close proximity to each other, rather then slabs racked in a slab box or in bulky 3-ring binder slab pages that only hold 6 to 9 slabs per page.  I can appreciate the confidence that graded coins give to buyers that either don't have the necessary experience to grade coins accurately themselves, or have to seek their coins thru online purchasing.  

But part of me regrets the irreversible impact grading services have had on the hobby.  I'm attempting to complete a U.S. Type Set which I want to display in an album.  My goal is to buy coins in XF to MS condition (based on budget constraints) to complete a set with very nice eye appeal.  Here in the U.S. grading is so pervasive, that it is extremely difficult to find older problem free higher grade raw coins.  Most all such coins are sent in for grading, and what raw coins you can find in store inventories are those deemed unworthy that would get a details grade because of cleaning, scratches, other problems, etc.  I also think the explosive rise in prices for higher graded coins has been due in large part to deep pocket collectors who are simply looking to raise their registry scores a fraction of a point, regardless of quality of strike or eye appeal of the coin.  The score is all that matters.

But that is what the hobby is now, and railing against is as effective as pissing into the wind.  Grading services have good points and bad points.  But coin shopping just seemed a more personal affair 30 or 40 years ago, and I miss that.

The grading market in the US seems to have developed in an odd way with the take up of CAC, I'm not sure why you need another company to give the OK to the grades given by NGC and PCGS to realise the full value of the coin when you go to sell it.

It's always going to be the case that it's buyer beware, in most cases you are always going to need a certain level of knowledge of the coin condition to make sure it matches the grade on the slab before you pay out the big money.

[Simmoleon]

5 minutes ago, GoldStatue said:

The grading market in the US seems to have developed in an odd way with the take up of CAC, I'm not sure why you need another company to give the OK to the grades given by NGC and PCGS to realise the full value of the coin when you go to sell it.

It's always going to be the case that it's buyer beware, in most cases you are always going to need a certain level of knowledge of the coin condition to make sure it matches the grade on the slab before you pay out the big money.

The whole CAC sticker approach is adding a new tier on top of the grading tier; from what I understand CAC stickers are given only to coins of outstanding eye appeal and have a different colour if they think it’s potentially under-graded. So a CAC sets a coin of a certain grade above coins of the same grade or that’s how the theory works.

The reality for me is it adds another premium on top of the grading premium so people want it either to improve the value further and/or to say they have a CAC sticker 

My issue with grading remains the same, stunning coins getting details grades and being seen as lesser coins. Also I fully understand that many collectors like the feel of a coin (having history in your hand) and slabs are not the same for some people. I slab coins to protect them and so they can be stored plus future sale may be easier but I have coins that’ll never be graded by me 

[kimchi]

12 hours ago, sovereignsteve said:

Is this the way the coin hobby is going?

 

Very, very interesting, thanks! About 20mins in and will catch the rest later. Heritage auctions eh?!!

[jultorsk]

The story of CAC goes about this... it was founded by John Albanese, a gent who also first helped found PCGS in 1986 and a year later, he founded NGC. He then sold his interest in NGC in 1998 and returned to his earlier career as coin dealer. But he was increasingly worried that the market was not fair for the consumer, so set up CAC (around 2007-2008?). Anyway, the issue CAC wants to address is that there's not enough 'granularity' within grades. So Albanese thought that there should be different groups within the grade - A, B and C. A coins are "above average", B are average, and C coins are "below average" or low-end for the assigned grade. The theory was that it's the low-end, C group coins that are driving pricing for the grade - the tail is wagging the dog, so to say. So he set out to rectify this by by starting to assign a green CAC sticker if the coin, in their opinion, is accurately/solidly graded or high-end example for the grade. If the coin is under graded, in their view, it gets a gold sticker. If it's just a low-end, C group coin, it does not get a sticker.

I have the Coin Collector's Survival Manual in my library - contains interesting stories of how the grading industry originally developed and how we got here with out hobby.

[Simmoleon]

1 hour ago, kimchi said:

Very, very interesting, thanks! About 20mins in and will catch the rest later. Heritage auctions eh?!!

My outlook on grading has been altered by that video; it also touches on some aspects of grading and auctions I clearly cannot comprehend but some of this evidence may explain elements of it 

[kimchi]

1 hour ago, jultorsk said:

If it's just a low-end, C group coin, it does not get a sticker.

Very interesting, many thanks.

What if it's overgraded?

[jultorsk]

2 minutes ago, kimchi said:

Very interesting, many thanks.

What if it's overgraded?

No sticker. In a way there's no "punishment" for running your coin through them. In theory any graded coin without a sticker can have potentially been at CAC and come back with "tail between legs". 🤷‍♂️🐕

[kimchi]

1 minute ago, jultorsk said:

No sticker. In a way there's no "punishment" for running your coin through them. In theory any graded coin without a sticker can have potentially been at CAC and come back with "tail between legs". 🤷‍♂️🐕

It makes (business) sense for them not to 'punish' grades they disagree with (feel are over-graded) but I assumed they'd have a database of all coins submitted to at least verify the unstickered ones? If not, it may appear to suggest (rightly or wrongly) another form of alleged 'cosiness' between some of the parties involved in grading imvho.

It's very much like another problem I have with graded coins - not knowing if they've been conserved or not. A seller may say a coin hasn't, or they don't know as they bought it graded. And this may or not be true. Only a positive 'yes it's been conserved' is likely to be true in almost all cases of sales of graded coins (unless bought from someone you trust). That's why I won't pay more for graded modern coins that aren't 70s than for raw ones, and know the status of all the graded coins in my collection except for one.

Why don't NGC (and do PCGS?) make the conservation status of a coin public? I know they keep records of it as people have been able to find out about coins unofficially through friends that work there.

With CAC's business model this lack of transparency over conservation seems to be replicated on unstickered coins (?)

[jultorsk]

Those are reasonable questions @kimchi.... please note I have no skin in the CAC game... I just thought to comment as I had read about their service and found it an interesting concept. So with that preamble, here's "the party line" what CAC says on their FAQ (apologies for the wall of text):

If a coin doesn’t receive a CAC sticker, does this mean CAC believes the coin is over-graded?

Absolutely not. There are many coins that are certified accurately for their grade. Unfortunately, it is an inescapable reality that many are at the lower end of the quality range for the assigned grade. CAC’s rejection of a coin does not necessarily mean that CAC believes the coin has been over-graded. It simply means that there are other coins with CAC stickers that are of higher quality for the grade. CAC will eventually reject tens of thousands of accurately graded coins. Many of these rejected coins will be acceptable to numerous dealers and collectors and will continue to be available in the marketplace. For quality-conscious collectors and dealers, a coin with a CAC sticker will have significant meaning.

Why can’t I use the CAC Verification Search to look up a PCGS or NGC graded coin that has no CAC sticker to find out if it has already been reviewed by CAC?

Many coins that CAC has reviewed, but did not sticker, have been accurately graded by PCGS or NGC. However, CAC stickers only coins that are solid for the grade, often referred to as B quality coins, and those that are considered high-end for the grade, which are often called A quality coins. Those that are accurately graded by PCGS or NGC, but are considered low-end for the grade and often referred to as C quality coins, are not stickered by CAC.

Furthermore, CAC wishes to protect the interest of an owner of a coin that has been reviewed by CAC but did not receive a sticker. Therefore, CAC does not want to compromise the value of such a coin by disclosing a negative review by CAC.

Are the serial numbers of PCGS or NGC coins submitted to CAC for verification recorded? If so, are coins automatically rejected by CAC that have previously been submitted but were not stickered?

The serial numbers of all PCGS and NGC coins that are submitted to CAC are recorded at the time they are entered into the CAC system.

All PCGS or NGC coins that are submitted to CAC are reviewed for CAC verification whether they have previously been submitted to CAC or not. Occasionally a coin that has previously been rejected for CAC verification is reconsidered by CAC and stickered.

--

The CAC assesses only a relatively tightly limited range of coins anyway - broadly USA only, nothing modern (practically nothing post-1964) and nothing bullion. 

[mr1030]

Looking at graded coins, both CAC stickered and those that are not, you can easily see that CAC stickered coins are usually of a better quality then an equally graded coin without CAC.  Looking at two MS66 Seated Liberty Half Dollars of the same date and mint mark for example, both will have the same number of surface blemishes and other criteria to qualify for the numerical grade.  But one will have unappealing toning and several stars around the circumference that are not fully struck, and the other will have beautiful eye appeal and all stars fully struck.  Yet both coins will have the same numerical grade.  CAC will sticker that superior coin.  If I see a coin has been noted with a CAC sticker, then I certainly would give it a closer look.  Sure, the grading service might give a superior coin a + or * designation, but I personally haven't seen that given on a consistent basis to coins that probably deserved it.