1912 sovereign a bit iffy?

[CollectorNo1]

Apart from the wear on the reverse at the 4/5 o'clock position I Dont see any evidence of mounting?

[LawrenceChard]

4 minutes ago, CollectorNo1 said:

Well you must have fantastic eyes...I don't...and  an XRF machine that costs upto $30,000.... and for a piece of equipment that expensive that can detect genuine PM's I think I would put my faith in that...rather than my eyes..😉😉

Our XRF cost £13,500 plus VAT, but I am sure there are more expensive ones.

They only tell you the (approximate) metal content, not whether the coin is genuine or fake.

See this article: https://www.chards.co.uk/blog/krugerrand-gold-content/507/3227

Of course, if the "sovereign" you are testing is only 750 gold, then it is an obvious fake, but you could probably tell that without the XRF.

[SilverJacks]

2 minutes ago, CollectorNo1 said:

Apart from the wear on the reverse at the 4/5 o'clock position I Dont see any evidence of mounting?

Sure, plus some around 8 o clock. I just thought with those marks in mind, maybe dipping it to get it cleaned for jewellery , or even heating it would explain why it's so worn...

 

[HawkHybrid]

I vote specific gravity test.

(it's affordable without the need to strain your eyes)

 

HH

[CollectorNo1]

I guess then if the opm isn't sure.. he should send it to you for verification put him out of his misery for a small fee of course haha....

[LawrenceChard]

9 minutes ago, SilverJacks said:

as HH stated heating, would there be need to apply heat if it were mounted? Could it have been dipped to clean it before mounting it? I guess I'm speculating quite wildly now...

As I said "Surface ripples can also occur if metal is over-heated, as in annealing, possibly of the blanks, but also possibly later.".

Jewellers might heat a coin while soldering a mount.

It could have still been on someone's finger when they were at the crematorium! 😎

[CollectorNo1]

2 minutes ago, SilverJacks said:

Sure, plus some around 8 o clock. I just thought with those marks in mind, maybe dipping it to get it cleaned for jewellery , or even heating it would explain why it's so worn...

 

You stated a reputable dealer you purchased this from? Without mentioning any names would it be a dealer most of us on here would have heard of??

[SilverJacks]

1 minute ago, CollectorNo1 said:

You stated a reputable dealer you purchased this from? Without mentioning any names would it be a dealer most of us on here would have heard of??

Good question, @Richiesilver might tell you.

I've asked so many questions now that anyone would think it's mine 😂

[CollectorNo1]

6 minutes ago, SilverJacks said:

Sure, plus some around 8 o clock. I just thought with those marks in mind, maybe dipping it to get it cleaned for jewellery , or even heating it would explain why it's so worn...

 

It's 109 years old.....got to expect ware and tare.....if I was that old..a few marks on my skin....I'd take that 😆😆

[HawkHybrid]

6 minutes ago, CollectorNo1 said:

It's 109 years old.....got to expect ware and tare.....if I was that old..a few marks on my skin....I'd take that 😆😆

you need skin care tips from the immortal jellyfish,... we all do 

 

HH

[dicker]

All of my comments have already been covered in the above.

The oddities that stand out for me are the '2' and the odd ripples and radial marks.

I would definitely do;

- SG test

- Compare against similar aged Sovs - width, colour etc etc

- Dare I say it - see how it pings! (Not something I know much about however!)

Best

Dicker

[Booky586]

There is another check that may be worth doing, the die axis alignment. It should be medal alignment on this coin, both obverse and reverse upright when spun on a vertical axis.

It's not a normal check I make but I'm just thinking about the heat ripples. If the heat has been applied in one position then I assume the ripples would form back to back on the coin. As the photos indicate, they look like they are in the second quadrant on both faces, meaning the die might be out of alignment by about 90 degrees.

If the alignment is out it doesn't indicate a fake but it would be another indicator in the wrong direction. And it's an easy test to take!

Edited September 2, 2021 by Booky586
Typo correction

[CollectorNo1]

12 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

Our XRF cost £13,500 plus VAT, but I am sure there are more expensive ones.

They only tell you the (approximate) metal content, not whether the coin is genuine or fake.

See this article: https://www.chards.co.uk/blog/krugerrand-gold-content/507/3227

Of course, if the "sovereign" you are testing is only 750 gold, then it is an obvious fake, but you could probably tell that without the XRF.

Very interesting article. 😊

[LawrenceChard]

3 hours ago, dicker said:

All of my comments have already been covered in the above.

The oddities that stand out for me are the '2' and the odd ripples and radial marks.

I would definitely do;

- SG test

- Compare against similar aged Sovs - width, colour etc etc

- Dare I say it - see how it pings! (Not something I know much about however!)

Best

Dicker

Yes, you are right, the "2" in the date looks very strange. I noticed, but forgot to mention it.

[Richiesilver]

1 hour ago, LawrenceChard said:

Yes, you are right, the "2" in the date looks very strange. I noticed, but forgot to mention it.

I spoke to the dealer, they re not concerned by the photos, they are happy to have it back for a double check. I will send it back to them.

[Richiesilver]

4 hours ago, Booky586 said:

There is another check that may be worth doing, the die axis alignment. It should be medal alignment on this coin, both obverse and reverse upright when spun on a vertical axis.

It's not a normal check I make but I'm just thinking about the heat ripples. If the heat has been applied in one position then I assume the ripples would form back to back on the coin. As the photos indicate, they look like they are in the second quadrant on both faces, meaning the die might be out of alignment by about 90 degrees.

If the alignment is out it doesn't indicate a fake but it would be another indicator in the wrong direction. And it's an easy test to take!

Die axis is fine. Do you know If heating would lighten the coin? It sure is yellow!

[Booky586]

8 hours ago, Richiesilver said:

Do you know If heating would lighten the coin? It sure is yellow!

I don't think heat would lighten the metal. There was a recent series on the TV about jewelry making and they were soldering gold using some sort of welding torch to heat the gold. The surface changed colour and went darker, but when cleaned went back to its original colour.

The colour of the coin will come from the alloy base metals and I'm guessing your coin has a higher than normal silver content.

Edited September 2, 2021 by Booky586
grammar correction

[SilverJacks]

29 minutes ago, Richiesilver said:

Die axis is fine. Do you know If heating would lighten the coin? It sure is yellow!

This, along with the radial marks is what made me think it’s fake, although the detail is so close that it would be a good fake, in my inexperienced judgement.

Would dipping a coin alter the colour?

With 1912 being a common date, perhaps would be a good choice for jewellery. Maybe dipping it for cleaning would explain the heavily worn appearance, heat applied during mounting explaining the ripples…

That’s my theory having considered everyone’s input. I’m not naive enough to assume I’ve worked it all out though 😂 

[CollectorNo1]

On my previous comment I stated the date looked OK.. but since I've had another look under a more powerful lupe and the date doesn't look right especially the "2" compared to other 1912 GV sovs and previous comments re:date.

[Britannia47]

Here's my 1912 for comparison, if it helps. 

 

[dicker]

These are some of the best topics on the forum - loads to see and learn.

 

Best Dicker

[CollectorNo1]

Also I forgot to mention the "9" doesn't look good...I'm very interested to see what the outcome of this sovereign will be..🤔

[Richiesilver]

24 minutes ago, CollectorNo1 said:

Also I forgot to mention the "9" doesn't look good...I'm very interested to see what the outcome of this sovereign will be..🤔

Will let you all know!

[SidS]

I would say from the photo it's definitely been cleaned, the obverse has that look about it. Right to be concerned about the reverse though.

[Richiesilver]

For anyone interested in the outcome here, the dealer has recieved the coin back. It has been verified as genuine but they concede it has been polished/heated/ex-mount. They have offered to send a replacement free of charge. Great service from them as I expected.