1912 sovereign a bit iffy?

[Richiesilver]

Hi folks,

Sorry to do one of 'these' posts but can I get your opinion on this sov? I only ever use mainstream dealers for sovs and usually don't give them more than a glance as they go in the safe. But this George stuck out when organising as it's really yellow. Was purchased from a top dealer. Your thoughts appreciated!

Edited September 1, 2021 by Richiesilver

[CollectorNo1]

As you know there will always be a different patina on sovreigns...it looks fine to me..no Red flags...nice lustre👍

[Richiesilver]

Just now, CollectorNo1 said:

As you know there will always be a different patina on sovreigns...it looks fine to me..no Red flags...nice lustre👍

Thanks, the main issue for me was the apparent creasing by the dragons neck 

[CollectorNo1]

Planchet or a bit of a striking error maybe..nothing I'd worry about..coin looks good,date looks fine...nice coin....

[LawrenceChard]

46 minutes ago, Richiesilver said:

Thanks, the main issue for me was the apparent creasing by the dragons neck 

You are right to be concerned about that, and I would be looking at it more closely.

The other concern is the radial flow lines on the obverse.

[CollectorNo1]

I saw that on the obverse but just looks like ware to me? But @LawrenceChard has had more sovreigns pass through his hands than me...I would respect his opinion..

 

Have you checked the weight,diameter?

[SilverJacks]

@LawrenceChard Could there be some tool marks in the field between the dragons neck and legs?

 

[Richiesilver]

29 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

You are right to be concerned about that, and I would be looking at it more closely.

The other concern is the radial flow lines on the obverse.

Thanks for the input. Weight and diameter are good but can't measure thickness beyond the eye. If you had to guess, would you say this is a contemporary forgery? As it came from a big dealer would that make it more likely to be a 22k forgery? Thanks again

[SilverJacks]

@RichiesilverHave you had it for long? I wonder, should dealers photograph every sale, in case this sort of dispute pops up? And if so, for how long would photos of sold items be stored, if at all?

[Richiesilver]

2 minutes ago, SilverJacks said:

@RichiesilverHave you had it for long? I wonder, should dealers photograph every sale, in case this sort of dispute pops up? And if so, for how long would photos of sold items be stored, if at all?

I purchased it in March 21. I regularly buy sovs from this dealer every month. Will contact them tomorrow to see what they say.

[CollectorNo1]

Trouble is...and I think everyone would say this is a fact...No one can confirm a fake or genuine through a photo...unless it's blatenly obvious....or they have Marvel/ Dc special powers...Always best to have Digital calipers,scales,earth magnet before you start collecting any coins...and an xrf machine wouldn't go amiss...if you can afford one..haha

[sovereignsteve]

1 hour ago, Richiesilver said:

Thanks, the main issue for me was the apparent creasing by the dragons neck 

Worrying, I have never seen anything like that before

15 minutes ago, SilverJacks said:

Could there be some tool marks in the field between the dragons neck and legs?

They, too, shouldn't be there. Probably associated with the adjacent creases.

 

Overall, sufficient suspicion to be wary.

[sovereignsteve]

On closer inspection, the reverse details are too "wooly" and the date is definitely suspect. I don't think any wear is sufficient to account for this. It could be a strange manifestation of a weak strike but I don't think so.

The reverse field has too many marks and irregularities that you don't see in a genuine coin.

[CollectorNo1]

I agree...but until you have it in your hands you don't know...its like viewing a painting  of..lets say a Van Gogh on the intetnet...there is absolutely no way on Earth you could determine that it's Real/Fake!!! You have to have it in your hands,testing paint samples,carbon dating the paint,observing the stroke patterns,colors,dimensions and having an expert knowledge of a genuine painting...it coincides with any antique art piece and coins....no matter your knowledge,experience, expertise in this field.....you can never say with certainty until you have it in front of you....if its Fake or Genuine....speculations is the art of uncertsinty! The only person who can ascertain if their coin is the person who posted the op....by conducting his or her own research....

[sovereignsteve]

2 minutes ago, CollectorNo1 said:

you can never say with certainty until you have it in front of you....if its Fake or Genuine........ The only person who can ascertain if their coin is the person who posted the op....by conducting his or her own research

I don't agree completely with your statement but it is true in many situations.

Some fakes are obvious in any photograph but sometimes the camera can emphasise certain features, depending on the light, that suggest an anomaly that isn't present.

[CollectorNo1]

3 minutes ago, sovereignsteve said:

I don't agree completely with your statement but it is true in many situations.

Some fakes are obvious in any photograph but sometimes the camera can emphasise certain features, depending on the light, that suggest an anomaly that isn't present.

Totally..I've seen so many fakes on ebay for example...that wouldn't fool a blind man.. 😄but I stick with my previous statement....until you have that coin in the palm of your hand and carry out the tests to ascertain its authenticity you can never assure  it being as exactly as it appears or claimed.

[HawkHybrid]

I get the impression that the details seem rounded off. as if it went through heat like

partially melted chocolate. the holes in the B.P. looks completely filled in.

I believe applying heat might also explain the scrunching effect seen near the dragons neck

(after it cools)

 

HH

Edited September 1, 2021 by HawkHybrid

[CollectorNo1]

9 minutes ago, HawkHybrid said:

I get the impression that the details seem rounded off. as if it went through heat like

partially melted chocolate. the holes in the B.P. looks completely filled in.

I believe applying heat might also explain the scrunching effect seen near the dragons neck

(after it cools)

 

HH

So???? Real or fake in Your opinion??????

[HawkHybrid]

26 minutes ago, CollectorNo1 said:

So???? Real or fake in Your opinion??????

my guess is it's real. (or at least it contains the gold)

the heat might have been applied as a test for it being plated.

 

HH

[LawrenceChard]

2 hours ago, SilverJacks said:

@LawrenceChard Could there be some tool marks in the field between the dragons neck and legs?

 

They are similar to what I called "flow" marks on the obverse, a grainy effect, sometimes like orange peel, sometimes in almost straight lines. These are not a good sign, although some genuine sovereigns do have a grainy or very grainy appearance.

[SilverJacks]

3 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

They are similar to what I called "flow" marks on the obverse, a grainy effect, sometimes like orange peel, sometimes in almost straight lines. These are not a good sign, although some genuine sovereigns do have a grainy or very grainy appearance.

I see. What are flow marks, or what might cause them rather?

I assumed tool marks in the intricate areas to smooth over something that the forger disliked. However, I'm still trying to learn things...

[LawrenceChard]

2 hours ago, CollectorNo1 said:

Trouble is...and I think everyone would say this is a fact...No one can confirm a fake or genuine through a photo...unless it's blatenly obvious....or they have Marvel/ Dc special powers...Always best to have Digital calipers,scales,earth magnet before you start collecting any coins...and an xrf machine wouldn't go amiss...if you can afford one..haha

Some fakes are so obvious that almost anyone can tell, even from a photo, but with less obvious fakes, or with debatable genuine ones, it can be difficult or impossible to tell with any certainty from photos.

Digital calipers, scales, neodymium magnet all have their use, as does an XRF machine. If any of them produce a "wrong" result, you have identified a fake, but in most cases they will not give an unequivocal answer.

The best equipment, which most of us have, is two eyes. A simple eyeglass will also help. Another example of the same coin type is useful for comparison. Then you need to invest some time comparing, and trying to work out what has caused the effects you are seeing.

Of course, experience also helps, but we all needed to start somewhere.

Your particular coin does look quite scruffy and worn, with a scratch on the king's face, there are other signs that it may have come out of jewellery, including the two curved dark areas near the reverse rim. Some of this may be making it harder to judge whether it is genuine or not.

I hope this helps.

[LawrenceChard]

7 minutes ago, SilverJacks said:

I see. What are flow marks, or what might cause them rather?

I assumed tool marks in the intricate areas to smooth over something that the forger disliked. However, I'm still trying to learn things...

Flow marks, just a description, as though the metal has flowed, which does happen to some extent on striking, but also if cast in a mould. 

Surface ripples can also occur if metal is over-heated, as in annealing, possibly of the blanks, but also possibly later. An orange peel effect can be seen on some genuine coins, as can other surface patterns and features.

Forgers would be very unlikely to use tooling on individual coins. Imperfections and loss of detail are likely to occur when making dies or moulds for mass / batch production of fakes. 

[CollectorNo1]

15 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

Some fakes are so obvious that almost anyone can tell, even from a photo, but with less obvious fakes, or with debatable genuine ones, it can be difficult or impossible to tell with any certainty from photos.

Digital calipers, scales, neodymium magnet all have their use, as does an XRF machine. If any of them produce a "wrong" result, you have identified a fake, but in most cases they will not give an unequivocal answer.

The best equipment, which most of us have, is two eyes. A simple eyeglass will also help. Another example of the same coin type is useful for comparison. Then you need to invest some time comparing, and trying to work out what has caused the effects you are seeing.

Of course, experience also helps, but we all needed to start somewhere.

Your particular coin does look quite scruffy and worn, with a scratch on the king's face, there are other signs that it may have come out of jewellery, including the two curved dark areas near the reverse rim. Some of this may be making it harder to judge whether it is genuine or not.

I hope this helps.

Well you must have fantastic eyes...I don't...and  an XRF machine that costs upto $30,000.... and for a piece of equipment that expensive that can detect genuine PM's I think I would put my faith in that...rather than my eyes..😉😉

[SilverJacks]

9 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

Flow marks, just a description, as though the metal has flowed, which does happen to some extent on striking, but also if cast in a mould. 

Surface ripples can also occur if metal is over-heated, as in annealing, possibly of the blanks, but also possibly later. An orange peel effect can be seen on some genuine coins, as can other surface patterns and features.

Forgers would be very unlikely to use tooling on individual coins. Imperfections and loss of detail are likely to occur when making dies or moulds for mass / batch production of fakes. 

as HH stated heating, would there be need to apply heat if it were mounted? Could it have been dipped to clean it before mounting it? I guess I'm speculating quite wildly now...