Suggested amendments to the 2021 edition of Marsh (revised by Hill)

[Zhorro]

I start by saying The Gold Sovereign Series is a superb book, but it is almost inevitable that omissions and errors will have occurred when such wide-ranging topics are covered.  I think it would be good to have a thread which brings together possible suggested amendments to future editions.  So, I will start off with things that I have spotted.

On p.32, the Matt BU 2019 quintuple sovereign is omitted.

On p.36, the Matt BU 2020 quintuple sovereign looks to be illustrated but it is not listed (only the 2020 proof version is listed).

On p.59, the obverse head illustrated appears to be from the £2 Britannia bicoloured coin rather than from a double sovereign (both the obverse and reverse illustrated show the date “2015” – so this would be a very rare mule!).

Also on p.59, the bullion double sovereigns for 2020 and 2021 are omitted.

On p.96, hardly any new sovereign die number discoveries have been added since the previous edition (I’ve only spotted one).  It would be useful to have a listing in one place of any new die number discoveries.

On p.158, the 2019 sovereign is listed as “normal” (No.355), but there are in fact three types: proof, bullion and Matt BU.  And in 2020 there was a Matt BU sovereign with the GR privy mark (with reeded edge which is not a SOTD).

On p.187, only about five new half sovereign die numbers have been added since the previous edition.  It would be useful to have a listing in one place of any new die number discoveries.  I have an 1867 Die 2.

On p.227, there still appears to be confusion over which half sovereigns between 2009 and 2015 have the letters “B. P.” to the right of the date.  As far as I can work out, the years 2009 and 2010 do not have “B. P.” next to the date, whilst 2011 to 2015 (excluding the special 2012) do.  Do people agree with this?

On p.228, bullion half sovereigns for 2018, 2019, 2020 and 2021 (all with no privy marks) are omitted.

 

So, as you read your copy, have you spotted anything?  Have you any die numbers to add?

[Zhorro]

As I stated in my original post, the 2021 edition of Marsh has not added many new Die number discoveries to the half sovereign list (p.187).  So, on Friday (30/4/21) I reviewed eBay’s listing of half sovereigns and I managed to spot eight unrecorded Die numbers.  As I don’t have the copyright for the pictures, I am not showing them, but I have listed the eBay items’ numbers:

1865 Die 12 (item 313319460272)

1865 Die 24 (item 164169726902)

1871 Die 68 (item 223622642371)

1872 Die 124 (item 153279604923)

1873 Die 278 (item 324583971493 – listed as 1872)

1874 Die 10 (item 402328242603)

1877 Die 40 (item 153797177047)

1878 Die 50 (item 402636885621)

This shows that discoveries of new half sovereign die numbers can be made and it would be useful to keep a track of them.

As I mentioned in my original post, I have an 1867 Die 2 half sovereign which is unrecorded in the 2021 edition of Marsh, so I am now showing it.

[Zhorro]

I have just reviewed the “Sovereign Error, Overdates and Varieties” thread on this Forum for any Die numbers that are unrecorded in the 2021 edition of Marsh.  I found:

Half Sovereign, 1871 Die 71 reported and shown on 28/1/19.

Half Sovereign, 1872 Die 38 eBay item (since removed) reported on 25/6/20.

[Zhorro]

The 2021 edition of Marsh did not add many new Die number discoveries to the full sovereign list (p.96).  Today I examined eBay’s listing of full sovereigns but I could only find one unrecorded Die number:

1871 Die 90 (item 333731856361)

Interestingly, the superb Bentley Collection of sovereigns (as stated in the auction catalogue Part 1 in a Table between lots 97 and 98) only added five new Die numbers to an earlier edition of Marsh (in about 2002).  Whilst the Bentley Collection concentrated on quality, I think this does show that it is much more difficult to find previously unrecorded full sovereign Die numbers which is probably because sovereigns have been much more avidly collected than half sovereigns.

 

Also regarding sovereigns, on this Forum there has been a debate about the number of 2018 SOTD of 65^th Anniversary of the Coronation Sovereign that were sold.  According to the Royal Mint's 2018 sales page, 650 were sold:

https://www.royalmint.com/discover/uk-coins/mintage-figures/2018-dated-uk-commemorative-coin-sales/

However, the recent edition of Marsh (p.163) states that only 323 were struck.  Can someone provide an original reference source for the 323 figure?  Otherwise, this may be another alteration required.

 

Also on p.163, the date for the 2021 95^th Birthday SOTD sovereign will need to be changed to 12^th June 2021.

[GoldDiggerDave]

You need to have a conversation with Steve Hill!     Seriously well done for your work! 👍

Got one for you mate.

2018 Piedfort sovereign.   page 158 (353) just says Piedfort no reference to the 65 privy mark as the pervious mention no(352)

Also the mintage figure is wrong shows 2,750.    RM sales figures 1930.   Also they only ever sold 1930 how come my COA is 2289?  I know the COA are most probably auto generated but mines a number higher  than they sold!

2018 SOTD Georges 5th Birthday (354) plain edge   Book says 457 sales figures show  485 were 28 returned and melted down? 

I have both and more than happy to buy 2 modern sovereigns both with R rating.   

 

Edited May 15, 2021 by GoldDiggerDave
typo

[Midasfrog]

Can anyone find in Marsh the 2018 proof that has the 65 privy mark to the right of the date and Pistrucci lettering to the left of the date ? 

[GoldDiggerDave]

12 minutes ago, Midasfrog said:

Can anyone find in Marsh the 2018 proof that has the 65 privy mark to the right of the date and Pistrucci lettering to the left of the date ? 

https://www.royalmint.com/discover/uk-coins/mintage-figures/2018-dated-uk-commemorative-coin-sales/

459 sold

[LawrenceChard]

On 02/05/2021 at 17:47, Zhorro said:

As I stated in my original post, the 2021 edition of Marsh has not added many new Die number discoveries to the half sovereign list (p.187).  

As I mentioned in my original post, I have an 1867 Die 2 half sovereign which is unrecorded in the 2021 edition of Marsh, so I am now showing it.

I don't think that is a "2".

I think it is actually a "Z" for Zhorro! 🙂

[GoldDiggerDave]

3 hours ago, GoldDiggerDave said:

https://www.royalmint.com/discover/uk-coins/mintage-figures/2018-dated-uk-commemorative-coin-sales/

459 sold

Another one for you Zhorro!

Midasfrog's  Five Pounds 

Page 32 F117 Normal, with 65 privy mark mintage 1000 S

Question to all,  if they gave this a rarity rating of S with a presumed mintage of a 1000 but  Royal Mint declares only 459 sold  would you expect this to effect the rarity rating, 459 is a low number for any sovereign?    

Zhorro, I'm thinking your going to be a busy man! 

Edited May 15, 2021 by GoldDiggerDave
typo

[Zhorro]

1 hour ago, dicker said:

This time - not an error but a 1873 London Half Sovereign, with a Die number not in Marsh.  

(I don't think there is anything special about this - there are many die numbers that are not recorded in Marsh.

Note: I have another Sovereign in the vault that has a die number that is not in Marsh.... it cannot be uncommon to find Sovereigns with un-recorded die numbers.

Best 

Dicker

 

 

I set up this thread to record items missing from the new Marsh book and I have informed Steve Hill about it.  So, thank you for the 1873 half sovereign die no 277.

[dicker]

26 minutes ago, Zhorro said:

I set up this thread to record items missing from the new Marsh book and I have informed Steve Hill about it.  So, thank you for the 1873 half sovereign die no 277.

I have quite a few more oddities that are not in Marsh.  Some I have published here, some I will do when I get back in the vault!

Cheers

Dicker

[Foster88]

I think I’ve spotted a typo in the price guide.

Marsh number: 75 says the value is £6,000 for the 1879 S Mint shield sovereign.

I’m confused by this valuation.

[Zhorro]

46 minutes ago, Foster88 said:

I think I’ve spotted a typo in the price guide.

Marsh number: 75 says the value is £6,000 for the 1879 S Mint shield sovereign.

I’m confused by this valuation.

Well spotted!  No.75 does relate to a shield back 1879 sovereign from Sydney - I have looked on eBay and I have found half a dozen examples priced between £450 and £700.

[Foster88]

21 minutes ago, Zhorro said:

Well spotted!  No.75 does relate to a shield back 1879 sovereign from Sydney - I have looked on eBay and I have found half a dozen examples priced between £450 and £700.

I think it’s supposed to say £600.

[GoldDiggerDave]

On 15/05/2021 at 12:47, GoldDiggerDave said:

You need to have a conversation with Steve Hill!     Seriously well done for your work! 👍

Got one for you mate.

2018 Piedfort sovereign.   page 158 (353) just says Piedfort no reference to the 65 privy mark as the pervious mention no(352)

Also the mintage figure is wrong shows 2,750.    RM sales figures 1930.   Also they only ever sold 1930 how come my COA is 2289?  I know the COA are most probably auto generated but mines a number higher  than they sold!

2018 SOTD Georges 5th Birthday (354) plain edge   Book says 457 sales figures show  485 were 28 returned and melted down? 

I have both and more than happy to buy 2 modern sovereigns both with R rating.   

 

Hi Guys,

I have another for you,  2019 Matt BU without privy mark  not a mention of this, I'll take a closer look at the book.

I believe this was the first day you could get a SYO sovereign.  They also sold this sovereign in gift packs that year.

 

 

 

[Zhorro]

13 minutes ago, GoldDiggerDave said:

Hi Guys,

I have another for you,  2019 Matt BU without privy mark  not a mention of this, I'll take a closer look at the book.

I believe this was the first day you could get a SYO sovereign.  They also sold this sovereign in gift packs that year.

You are correct this is not included in the book, but I did mention it in my original post (seventh paragraph down).

[GoldDiggerDave]

1 minute ago, Zhorro said:

You are correct this is not included in the book, but I did mention it in my original post (seventh paragraph down).

Did not see see it, but it’s good to show a little bit of bling on a Monday morning. 
there can’t be that many 2019 SYO sovereigns about.  

[Zhorro]

11 hours ago, sovereignsteve said:

 

Following the discussion in the other thread, it makes sense to record the potential adjustments to Marsh here: It seems likely that the 1913 Canada sovereign with a mintage of 3,717 should be R3 (extremely rare) rather than C3 (extremely common!), and the 1914 with a mintage of 14,900 should be R2 (very rare) and not C2 (very common).

[dicker]

On 02/05/2021 at 17:47, Zhorro said:

As I stated in my original post, the 2021 edition of Marsh has not added many new Die number discoveries to the half sovereign list (p.187).  So, on Friday (30/4/21) I reviewed eBay’s listing of half sovereigns and I managed to spot eight unrecorded Die numbers.  As I don’t have the copyright for the pictures, I am not showing them, but I have listed the eBay items’ numbers:

1865 Die 12 (item 313319460272)

1865 Die 24 (item 164169726902)

1871 Die 68 (item 223622642371)

1872 Die 124 (item 153279604923)

1873 Die 278 (item 324583971493 – listed as 1872)

1874 Die 10 (item 402328242603)

1877 Die 40 (item 153797177047)

1878 Die 50 (item 402636885621)

This shows that discoveries of new half sovereign die numbers can be made and it would be useful to keep a track of them.

As I mentioned in my original post, I have an 1867 Die 2 half sovereign which is unrecorded in the 2021 edition of Marsh, so I am now showing it.

I have a 5 other die numbers on half Sovs that are not noted here or in Marsh....

Edited July 26, 2021 by dicker
Typo

[Zhorro]

1 hour ago, dicker said:

I have a 5 other die numbers on half Sovs that are not noted here or in Marsh....

So, please list them on this thread (with accompanying pictures?).

[dicker]

I am working my way through photographing and will be adding them to the Sovereign Overdate and Varieties thread.  
 

Best

Dicker

[Zhorro]

5 minutes ago, dicker said:

I am working my way through photographing and will be adding them to the Sovereign Overdate and Varieties thread.  
 

Best

Dicker

In that case I suggest you also inform Steve Hill directly - otherwise he is unlikely to find them!

[dicker]

Let me add a cross link…there are a fair number of interesting items not in Marsh on the other page….

Best Dicker

[Zhorro]

24 minutes ago, dicker said:

Let me add a cross link…there are a fair number of interesting items not in Marsh on the other page….

Best Dicker

I did go through the Sovereign Overdates and Varieties thread looking for the listable varieties when I set up this thread.  Whilst something may be interesting, Marsh tends to only list overstruck items where one letter is struck over a different letter, or one number is struck over a different number.  Whilst double struck letters and numbers are interesting, they are not listed in Marsh.

[dicker]

Good stuff!  Keep an eye on it - I will keep posting on that thread with some of my findings. 

One item that has always interested me on another thread is an 1880 Half Sovereign - looked genuine and one has been through London Coin Auctions but it is not listed in Marsh.  

Best

Dicker