The "it's just bullion" defence - scammed by dealers?

[BackyardBullion]

OK guys, I have a video coming out later today about a well known Bullion Dealer that I have recently been "hard done by" in my opinion. 

Now, I am not a big fan of naming and shaming - I ultimately have a business to run and the burning of bridges just does not make any sense to me. Especially when "Technically" the dealer has not done anything wrong, other than use shady and morally questionable ethics when selling a coin. 

Handling of this situation was poor by the company with mixed messages from different people at that company. 

Many of you will probably be able to work out who I am talking about but I will not be confirming it here, so like me or not for choosing to do this please respect my opinion. 

More details to follow later today but in essence the issue here is:

• Premium coin, sold at a premium.
• Shocking condition, damaged.
• Issues with delivery.
• Customer services giving very mixed messages on how they can help resolve this situation
• False hope.
• Hopes dashed by the "It's bullion" excuse and basically told to go and buy elsewhere if I want perfect coins. 
• Followed up by complete lack of acknowledgement and communications

Buy at your own risk is the message here. It happens to us all at some time or another!

 

 

 

[mr-dead]

At first I thought it was a silver coin, thinking bad coin but no big deal and I would take the hit without any fuss.

After a 2nd look I realised it was a platinum coin which is on another pricing level and despite being "bullion" you expect the coin to be in decent shape with the design as intended by the mint without missing bits and defects.

 

If its no big deal and just "bullion" then why would the dealer object to an exchange.

[BackyardBullion]

Just now, mr-dead said:

At first I thought it was a silver coin, thinking bad coin but no big deal and I would take the hit without any fuss.

After a 2nd look I realised it was a platinum coin which is on another pricing level and despite being "bullion" you expect the coin to be in decent shape with the design as intended by the mint without missing bits and defects.

 

If its no big deal and just "bullion" then why would the dealer object to an exchange.

It was sold at about a €50 premium compared to the cheapest platinum coins available at the same time. I wanted to continue with Queen's beasts to bet on the premium growth in the future. 

€50 I will never see again. I have essentially bought expensive bullion.

I should point out that whilst I am not going to name this dealer, I can confirm that it was NOT The European Mint. 

Quite refreshingly the EU mint offered to buy this off me for spot +€30 which is a pretty fair price all things considered. The problem is they (The EU Mint) cannot source a replacement griffin at a decent price for me. 

 

[Mcgrimes]

A bullion grading should be priced accordingly. If this coin was spot +2% then I’d understand.

Who was the dealer?

[BackyardBullion]

9 minutes ago, Mcgrimes said:

A bullion grading should be priced accordingly. If this coin was spot +2% then I’d understand.

Who was the dealer?

I agree, if it was the same price as any other platinum coin then I would have not been bothered. 

But - it wasn't. 

I'm not naming and shaming, I am sure many on this forum can guess though. 

[Fastnick]

@BackyardBullion Yes, I'm sure that many of us won't have any trouble in guessing the dealer involved......

And if it is the one that I am thinking it is, then given how much business they have done with you over the last few years, then their attitude in this matter is both shameful and incredibly short-sighted

[sovereignsteve]

5 minutes ago, BackyardBullion said:

I agree, if it was the same price as any other platinum coin then I would have not been bothered. 

But - it wasn't. 

I'm not naming and shaming, I am sure many on this forum can guess though. 

Look forward to the video so we can confirm our initial thoughts!🤔

[Martlet]

If its being sold as a Premium coin, advertised as in mint condition etc, etc its wrong to ship something i substandard condition and claim its bullion after.  Though if its sold as is, with a higher price due to scarcity, its bullion with a high premium.  

[BackyardBullion]

4 minutes ago, Martlet said:

If its being sold as a Premium coin, advertised as in mint condition etc, etc its wrong to ship something i substandard condition and claim its bullion after.  Though if its sold as is, with a higher price due to scarcity, its bullion with a high premium.  

This was advertised like every other coin on their site - Condition: New.

Interestingly I have checked back on their site just now, the premium compared with other 1 oz platinuim coins has been reduced from +€50 to only +€12 so maybe they heard what I was saying when I moaned at them via email. 

Still, it says "New" which comes back to the "its just bullion" defence. They got it like this from the Royal Mint.

[Martlet]

2 minutes ago, BackyardBullion said:

This was advertised like every other coin on their site - Condition: New.

Interestingly I have checked back on their site just now, the premium compared with other 1 oz platinuim coins has been reduced from +€50 to only +€12 so maybe they heard what I was saying when I moaned at them via email. 

Still, it says "New" which comes back to the "its just bullion" defence. They got it like this from the Royal Mint.

If they changed the price think i'd be looking for a discount on the purchase or credit.  

[BackyardBullion]

1 minute ago, Martlet said:

If they changed the price think i'd be looking for a discount on the purchase or credit.  

Well - prices change all the time in all shops on and offline. I don't think this will fly with them to be honest!

Basically I got hosed and I consider myself to be a pretty savvy shopper. 

[silenceissilver]

2 hours ago, BackyardBullion said:

Now, I am not a big fan of naming and shaming -

Yet you are doing it

2 hours ago, BackyardBullion said:

Many of you will probably be able to work out who I am talking about but I will not be confirming it here, so like me or not for choosing to do this please respect my opinion.

Name or shame them or don't. Everyone who follows the silver forum regularily, knows who you are talking about.

[BackyardBullion]

1 minute ago, silenceissilver said:

Yet you are doing it

I am not naming anyone. 

2 minutes ago, silenceissilver said:

Name or shame them or don't. Everyone who follows the silver forum regularily, knows who you are talking about.

If people infer from my post who I am talking about, mission accomplished. 

By doing it the way I am doing it I am protecting my business relationships and also sharing my thoughts on this subject.

[AppleZippoandMetronome]

I think the "it's just bullion thing" is used too widely. In some cases it is applicable - where coins come out of tubes for example it should be expected that they might have marks consistent with having been in those tubes with other coins. But I've seen it applied to coins like the 10oz silver QB's which shouldn't suffer from those faults given how they come from the mint. Some of those 10oz silver QB''s are shockingly bad and should be eligible for return yet it seems like it is allowed to fly because "it is just bullion".

I think all you can do in situations like this is vote with your £s, €s or $s and where you think a dealer is taking the piss with the excuse...  stop supporting that dealer.

[silenceissilver]

18 minutes ago, BackyardBullion said:

I am not naming anyone. 

If people infer from my post who I am talking about, mission accomplished. 

By doing it the way I am doing it I am protecting my business relationships and also sharing my thoughts on this subject.

So you shame without naming but hinting so that everyone knows the name. That's what makes it so bad. That's not a very masculine attitude but a sneaky one. This attitude is the reason why I never became a customer of yours (at a time where I almost did become one).

[BackyardBullion]

3 minutes ago, silenceissilver said:

So you shame without naming but hinting so that everyone knows the name. That's what makes it so bad. That's not a very masculine attitude but a sneaky one. This attitude is the reason why I never became a customer of yours (at a time where I almost did become one).

OK - that's your opinion and not much more needs to be said. 

[Abyss]

First and foremost I feel you pain @BackyardBullion. Last year when attempting to backdate 1 oz Gold QB coins purchased 4 Griffin coins from Chards that were delivered together (single plastic bag) and significantly damaged. I was lucky that I had asked for the condition of the coins from the dealer who stated very good condition before I purchased and video recorded the unboxing. In my case the issue resolved by myself taking time off work to drive to Blackpool see the dealer in person and exchange the coins with others they had in stock that I could choose from. I do want to say that Chards has made changes to their packaging and at the time even though I was fumming subsequently have purchased from them again and have had no issues.

Can I ask the following questions?

• Did you make any inquiries condition of the coin before made the purchase
• Did you pay by credit card
• Do you have a video record of the unboxing
• Have you tried to claim for refund
• Did you say to the dealer who you are i.e. @BackyardBullion and have a large social media presence equal negative press issue not resolved

European Dealers (GS.be / European Mint) pay via transferwise but UK dealer I would always try to pay via credit card (pay full balance end of each month) offers additional protection in case something like this happens. As for the last bullet point I would believe that the last person any dealer would want to upset is someone with a large social media presence and the potential negative press that could result from the backlash.

[Pete]

I too have experienced the same problem with this unnamed EU dealer but to be fair, their explanation is that this is the condition the coins are received directly from the Mint so the blame surely must lie 100% with the Royal Mint for lack of, or don't give a sh!t, quality control. The hassle of inspection and rejection isn't something this seller undertakes and I know of a UK coin dealer who also hasn't time to inspect coins ( takes all of 2 seconds to spot obvious damage ). An expensive coin like the one ounce platinum beast, or collectible beasts in silver and gold are not just cheap bullion, judging by their premiums, and the Royal Mint cannot be arsed to include a cheap capsule to protect their coins from scuffs & dings. Maybe the damage occurs in production so a capsule wouldn't make any difference so why not save 50 pence ? How about ordering a second coin but directly from the Mint ( paying their inflated price plus the 20% VAT ) then shipping back the marked coin for a full refund ? You might get another bad coin but return this for a replacement and repeat until happy.

[Robjw]

Tough one really because though it might have a premium the standard is bullion and is described as so at every point of sale, from the mint to the customer / dealer and ultimately to you. This stays the same from mint -> customer / dealer -> customer -> dealer -> you and the only real sticky point is the "new" and how that is defined on their website.

This is why I would never buy or collect "bullion collectable series" unless I purchased from the RM directly,  I think ultimately the dealer did nothing wrong, Ideally they should of offered to replace it or given you the premium cost back but then  whats to stop people scratching up a coin to get it at a reduced rate?

Still a crappy situation BYB and I hope the dealer comes back with some sort of reduction / solution for you.

[BackyardBullion]

13 minutes ago, Abyss said:

Can I ask the following questions?

• Did you make any inquiries condition of the coin before made the purchase
• Did you pay by credit card
• Do you have a video record of the unboxing
• Have you tried to claim for refund
• Did you say to the dealer who you are i.e. @BackyardBullion and have a large social media presence equal negative press issue not resolved

European Dealers (GS.be / European Mint) pay via transferwise but UK dealer I would always try to pay via credit card (pay full balance end of each month) offers additional protection in case something like this happens. As for the last bullet point I would believe that the last person any dealer would want to upset is someone with a large social media presence and the potential negative press that could result from the backlash.

• Did you make any inquiries condition of the coin before made the purchase
  • Nope - never have with this dealer to be fair. 
• Did you pay by credit card
  • IBAN Banks transfer
• Do you have a video record of the unboxing
  • Yes I do
• Have you tried to claim for refund
  • I was told by one of the customer service rep's that because of some of the issues with delivery along the way we would be able to put in a claim with FedEx. I followed up about this "claim" to which I got the answer, its bullion, deal with it. 
• Did you say to the dealer who you are i.e. @BackyardBullion and have a large social media presence equal negative press issue not resolved
  • They know who I am but I will not and would not ever call on my name to get a situation like this resolved - that is a blatant threat and not the way I want to do business or be perceived to do business.

Despite what some people may think and infer (as to my masculinity!?!?!?) in this situation, I firmly believe that plastering the name of the dealer all around forums and social media is irresponsible. 

Especially so when that dealer has not done anything wrong/illegal. All they have done is demonstrated an ethically grey dealing tactic and followed up with poor customer services. 

Many will know the risks of dealing with this and other similar dealers - the aim of this thread is to highlight that this kind of thing happens a lot in the world of bullion dealing.

 

 

[sovereignsteve]

Maybe you could contact the mint and ask for a replacement?

They may go for it as the dealer states it is as received from them.

Although they would probably say you need to go through the retailer.

[Abyss]

Would the Consumer Contracts Regulations help? https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/distance-selling-regulations under the law do you have a right to cancel?

Could you make a complaint to the bank asking them to intervene and recover the funds?

If the dealer had applied the same approach "its just bullion" to myself I would be unsure what avenue I could pursue to resolve the matter.

[BackyardBullion]

2 minutes ago, Abyss said:

Would the Consumer Contracts Regulations help? https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/distance-selling-regulations under the law do you have a right to cancel?

Could you make a complaint to the bank asking them to intervene and recover the funds?

If the dealer had applied the same approach "its just bullion" to myself I would be unsure what avenue I could pursue to resolve the matter.

The distance selling regulations and right to cancel do not apply to bullion. This is part of their T&C's

[Lr103]

4 hours ago, BackyardBullion said:

I firmly believe that plastering the name of the dealer all around forums and social media is irresponsible.  

This is actually a very important distinction. While many might know the identity of the dealer based on a history of reading the forum, by acting in this manner @BackyardBullion is among other things preventing this thread from getting picked up by Google etc. when the name of the dealer is searched.  My own first exposure to this forum came from a Google search researching Queen's Beasts 🙂

[Fastnick]

1 hour ago, Abyss said:

Would the Consumer Contracts Regulations help? https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/distance-selling-regulations under the law do you have a right to cancel?

Could you make a complaint to the bank asking them to intervene and recover the funds?

If the dealer had applied the same approach "its just bullion" to myself I would be unsure what avenue I could pursue to resolve the matter.

I did try this a few months back when I received a slightly sub-standard 10oz QB from the EU Mint; the Royal Mint simply didn't want to know.....